Preamble

The House met at Eleven o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

BILL PRESENTED

NATIONAL SWEEPSTAKES

Bill to provide financial support for hospital work and medical research of a pioneering kind and for other prescribed purposes by national sweepstakes on the result of specified horseraces; and for purposes connected therewith, presented by Mr. R. Graham Page; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 2nd December, and to be printed. [Bill 48.]

Orders of the Day — MINISTRY OF SOCIAL SECURITY BILL

Considered in Committee [Progress, 13th June].

[Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair]

Clause 8.—(EXCLUSION OF PERSONS IN FULL-TIME EMPLOYMENT.)

11.6 a.m.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 4, line 24, to leave out from "apply" to "where" in line 25.
Clause 8 provides that there shall be excluded from this benefit persons who are engaged in remunerative full-time work, with certain exceptions. The exception to which this Amendment relates and on which I want guidance occurs in subsection (3) where there are references to the disabled. As I read the subsection, it seems to make a completely irrelevant distinction between the self-employed disabled and the employed disabled. I understand from the subsection that, where a person by reason of disability has his earnings substantially reduced in comparison with those of other persons similarly occupied, he may be brought within the benefit of the Bill unless he is an employed person. I may have misread the provision. I certainly hope that in any publicity or leaflets issued to acquaint the general public with the purposes of the Bill this will be one of the points more clearly and simply spelt out.
There are many disabled persons whom we are encouraging in every possible way to take jobs, some in sheltered workshops, some in Remploy schemes, some—thank goodness—in conditions of normal employment. Not only is it to the benefit of the disabled people themselves that they should work and earn their living wherever possible, but it is, of course, to the benefit of the whole country.
But many of these people, especially when they first start back at work after, perhaps, a life of crippling illness, when they may be trying to get used to new artificial limbs or, perhaps, trying to recover their equilibrium after severe


mental breakdown, may well have their earnings substantially reduced in comparison with those with whom they are working on similar jobs. But are we to say that, if a man sits at home making baskets and earns some money he can be brought within the benefits of the Bill whereas, if he goes to a workshop and makes baskets as an employee, he must be excluded however modest his earnings or by however much they are less, by reason of his disability, than the earnings of those alongside whom he works?
I wonder whether it would not have been clearer and simpler if, instead of making this irrelevant differential between disabled people, it might have been provided that every person registered under the Disabled Persons Employment Act, whether self-employed or employed by someone else, should be brought within the Bill. I table the Amendment in the hope of getting some clarification about the point. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will want to look sympathetically at what seems to be a possibility of unfairness.

The Minister of Pensions and National insurance (Miss Margaret Herbison): My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) has, as usual, put her case excellently and most reasonably. She is right in her interpretation of the Clause and its effect upon the disabled person.
The Clause provides that anyone who is engaged in remunerative full time work is disqualified from benefit under the Bill. To escape disqualification, two conditions are specified in subsection (3): first, that the man must not be employed under a contract of service; and, secondly, that his earning power is substantially reduced by disability compared with other persons in the same occupation. The Amendment would remove the first condition, and it would mean, in effect, that the disabled man who worked for an employer and satisfied the second condition would be eligible for benefit under the Bill like the self-employed person.
My hon. Friend referred to the self-employed who work at home. They rarely make what one could call wages. She referred to the basket maker. My information is that if one compares a basket maker working at home with one

employed in a workshop, there is a very great difference in the amount of money that they get at the end of the week. Many of the people who work—if one can call it that—at home are doing the work mainly for some therapeutic reason.
Having said that, I would stress that I have the very greatest sympathy with the case that my hon. Friend has made. But a broader question is involved. The disabled persons who are most seriously affected by the disqualification—those in industry—and whose earning power is reduced by disability cannot get any of the non-contributory benefits under the Bill. But such a person is not unlike his fellow worker who is a low-wage earner with a family who, if there was no wage-stop, would be better off.
I do not think that there is any doubt that these two groups—the group for whom my hon. Friend is making a plea and the low-wage earning group—overlap. The disabled man with a family and the low-wage earner seem to me to form a very special element in the problem of family poverty.
On Monday we dealt very fully, on Amendments, with the question of family poverty. I do not think that any hon. Member can be in any doubt about the deep concern of the Government about this problem. We are determined to find a solution to it. However, I am convinced, having examined this matter as carefully and as sympathetically as I can, that we should only complicate this very serious issue and perhaps aggravate the inequities which already exist if we dealt separately with the problem of disabled persons working for an employer.
I ask my hon. Friend to await whatever decisions the Government may reach on the whole question of family poverty. I know that there is a serious problem, but I do not think that the remedy suggested is the right way to deal with it.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: In view of my right hon. Friend's assurance that the matter will continue to be the subject of urgent study, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

11.15 a.m.

Dame Joan Vickers: I should like to refer to the situation of a man who has been unemployed for a considerable time and obtains a job and then has to work, as is done in so many industries, with one week in hand. In other words, he does not get paid for a whole week. This leads to very great difficulties, because the man seldom has any savings and his family must be kept during that period, and it is difficult for him to get any form of assistance.
I should like to know whether the Clause will prevent the family from getting some assistance during the week in which the man, although he is fully employed, is not drawing any wages. There are more industries than one in which this happens, and I have personal experience of the fact that this causes considerable hardship to families.

Miss Herbison: The Bill makes no difference in the treatment of such a person from what obtains at present. I do not know what the expression is in England, but in Scotland we talk of a waiting period before the wages are paid. The National Assistance Board finds out, and I imagine that the Commission will, the circumstances not only of the man but of his family and whether he can have some of his earnings by the end of the week.
On the basis of my experience of cases dealt with by the National Assistance Board in my constituency, I am sure that the Commission will deal most sympathetically with these people. It is not in every case that the man is denied benefit. I am certain that this is the proper way to deal with it. I agree with the hon. Lady that sometimes great hardship could be caused.

Mr. Bernard Braine: I am sure that the whole Committee will be grateful to the right hon. Lady for her clarification of the position raised by the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger).
It occurs to me that there may well be a case where a disabled man finally gets a job after having been in receipt of the 9s. addition, and then, because of the nature of his disability, he finds

after holding the job for a time that he cannot cope and has to give up. Will he be in a position to continue drawing the 9s. addition straight away, or, under the Bill as a present drafted, will he have to wait two years on Assistance before he will be eligible again for the 9s. addition?

Miss Herbison: That will depend on the length of time for which he was able to work. I will be dealing with the 9s. on further Amendments put down by my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite. In the vast majority of cases, it is not an additional benefit. It would probably be better to leave the matter until we come to those other Amendments.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11.—(POWER TO REQUIRE REGISTRATION FOR EMPLOYMENT.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: Again, I need a little clarification from the Minister.
Clause 11 provides that the Commission may require a person to be registered for employment in order to qualify for benefits under the Bill. I am anxious to know what kinds of considerations will be in the mind of the Commission in determining whether one person or another shall be required to register for employment. I am thinking particularly of the case of a woman who is the sole supporter of her children. She may be an unmarried mother or a deserted or separated wife whose husband has not been brought within the beneficent effects of the attachment of earnings legislation. For a woman with two or three small children to have to register for employment when there is little likelihood of her obtaining employment is rather unrealistic.
I am anxious to know whether the Commission will have the right to take such personal circumstances into account and, in certain cases, to exempt such people from the necessity for employment registration.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary, Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Harold Davies): The simple answer to my hon. Friend is that it is envisaged that the Commission, as the Board does at present, will only require the registration of persons who are in the employment' field. Persons like those mentioned by my hon. Friend, who are unfit or who are mothers of children of school age, will not be required to register.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Hill.

Clause 12.—(MODIFICATION OF RIGHT TO SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCE IN SPECIAL CASES.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Dame Joan Vickers: I am glad to see that training will be encouraged and allowed, but I would like to know the types of courses of instruction which the Minister will approve.
In addition, I am a little worried about the supplementary allowance during that period. From personal experience, I can say that many people will not go for any form of training because the allowance they get for themselves and I heir families is not adequate.
I see a reference in subsection (3) to an allowance
for meeting his personal requirements or the requirements of any dependant"—
which, I suppose, includes the whole family—
as the Commission thinks fit.
If it is a question of a long course, another reason why people will object to going on it is that they do not see their families during it. The great object is to try and keep a family together, and he man or woman on the training course should be allowed to return to the family at least once during the period.
I am interested to know what contact the Commission will have with the Ministry of Labour. One of the difficulties chat I have found in the past is that people have consented to go for training and have been trained, for example, as watch repairers, but, on returning to heir home areas, have been unable to

find jobs. Can we have an assurance that too many people will not be trained in certain categories, and that there will be some liaison with the Ministry of Labour in the area concerned to ensure that when a man returns from training he will have a job? It has been said on more than one occasion to such a man, "There is no job for you in the Plymouth area, but you can get a job in Birmingham," It is quite impossible for him to move his family from one area to another.
I hope that the right hon. Lady can give us some assurance that the type of training to which a man is sent will fit him for one of the occupations available in his own neighbourhood; otherwise the training is useless, and only makes him feel more unhappy when he comes back from it and finds he cannot get a job.
I hope that the matter will be further considered, because there are occasions when it does not work satisfactorily at the moment.

Mr. Harold Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising those points. May I assure her right away that there is nothing punitive in the Clause?
As for liaison between the Ministry of Labour and my right hon. Friend's Ministry, I can assure the hon. Lady that it is a continuous process. Between them, they have accumulated a vast experience of suitable types of training.
The hon. Lady considered the requirements of subsection (2). Under that, the Commission is empowered, once the Tribunal has given a direction under Subsection (1), to make paying the allowance conditional upon such a person being available for training. In the last analysis, the training is of a type which my right hon. Friend the Minister has to approve.
We are aware of the points that the hon. Lady has been gracious enough to bring forward. I assure her that, as was her own party when in power, the present Government are concerned with those very points.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 13 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 21.—(DISCONTINUANCE OF OLD AGE PENSIONS.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Paul Dean: We should not let this Clause pass without saying a word of farewell to the very first State pension scheme which was introduced in the country and which is now abolished by the Clause. The Committee will recollect that the pension dates back from 1st January, 1909, when it was at the rate of 5s. It did not begin until a person reached the age of 70 and, even then, he could not get it if he had an income of 10s. a week or more. We have come some way since then, thanks to the contributions which have been made by all parties in the development of our social services.
I want to ask the Minister one question. The White Paper tells us that there are now 63,000 non-contributory old-age pensioners of whom all but 14,000 get National Assistance. That means that there are 14,000 people whose right to benefit has to be protected because they will lose their old-age pensions.
The Parliamentary Secretary has already given us an assurance that these rights are fully protected, but he and his right hon. Friend will realise that there is some doubt amongst people who have considerable experience in these matters about whether that protection is fully covered in the Bill.
I am sure that the Minister will agree that it is important to have clarification of the point, because, after all, these matters are decided not by the word of Ministers but by the law as expressed in the Bill. There are no words in this Clause dealing with the protection of these rights. I assume that we are meant to read the Clause in conjunction with subsection (4) of Schedule 7. I would like to ask the Minister if she is satisfied that this protection given in the Seventh Schedule is sufficient to achieve the object which she has in mind.

11.30 a.m.

Mr. Harold Davies: I would like to assure the hon. Member that he need have no fears about this. Before I deal with that point may I, on behalf of this side of the Committee, bid farewell to the old system of pensions and agree that

we are entering a new kind of society in which, whatever our political viewpoint, it is obvious that there will be more periodic reviews of the way in which our social security system works. The aged surviving pioneers of the old pension system will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this point.
The hon. Member said in the debate on Clause 5:
On the face of it, unless special orders are made, a substantial number of people, most of them retired pensioners, will get less under the new arrangement than they get at present."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th June, 1966; Vol. 729, c. 1137.]
I can assure him that our intention is quite clear. We thought that we had clarified it in the White Paper. Furthermore, a person now receiving discretionary additions of more than 9s. will continue to receive these to make good the balance over 9s.
The pensioner with a discretionary allowance of 17s. 6d. will get the longer term addition of 9s. plus a discretionary addition of 8s. 6d., so that so far as his special needs are concerned he will be in exactly the same position as before. The Clause simply has the effect of bringing to an end the obsolescent system of the non-contributory old-age pension. We believe that it is a step forward and I can say categorically that no one will be worse off.

Mr. Dean: This particular safeguard is not in Clause 21. Can the hon. Gentleman put on record precisely where it will be found in the Bill?

Mr. Davies: As the hon. Gentleman has said, it is in Schedule 7.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23.—(RECOVERY OF COST OF BENEFIT FROM PERSONS LIABLE FOR MAINTENANCE.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Dame Joan Vickers: Dame Joan Vickers I would like to ask the right hon. Lady one or two questions about this Clause, which deals with maintenance orders, for a wife who


has had to divorce her husband, or for a deserted wife who has an order.

I hope that I may solicit the support of the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger), as she wrote an excellent article in The Guardian in which she said:
It appears to do nothing specific for the fatherless families, including the 'court order' mothers who spend too much of their time hanging round the courts each week to see if their errant men have sent the money as ordered. These women should be able to collect their money from the new Ministry of Social Security, which in turn should deal with the payments from their menfolk.

I know that the Minister will agree with me that Scotland has a much better method of doing this. In this connection, we were able to follow the Scottish idea and introduce it in the Maintenance Orders Acts, which, I regret to say, is not working as well as it should. On so many occasions it happens that women, thinking that there is going to be money in the court, go there to find only that there is nothing, and have to go round to another office to get their supplementary pension and assistance from the National Assistance Board.

I understand that the Commission can make a complaint to the magistrates' court and if money is not paid into the court, it can help this woman. I want to suggest that it would be much more satisfactory if in future the Commission paid the total amount of money which the woman should be receiving weekly directly to her. It could then claim the money from the court. In smaller amounts it is not so difficult but the other day I had a case in which a woman was supposed to have £15 a week.

The woman's ex-husband did not pay this and she was forced to go to the National Insurance Board—she had seven children. To escape having an order made against him with his employer the husband paid in a lump sum and immediately the National Assistance Board claimed back a certain percentage of the money which it had paid to her. By this time, because she was not getting the full amount of £15 each week she was not in a position to repay the Board at once and it will take her some considerable time, even if the husband pays consistently.

I hope that in future the Commission will take full responsibility for the amount which the woman should be receiving weekly or monthly. This business of the woman having to go to the court week after week only to find that the money is not there and then having to pay extra bus fares, leave her children behind and go to the Commission to get the money is most unsatisfactory. It is within the powers of the existing Board to take this action, but it is done all too infrequently. I would have liked to see it made obligatory that the Commission should pay this woman so that she has some real security.

Most of these women do not know from week to week what money they are to receive. It may be £5 one week and £7 the next, and so on. It is extremely difficult when there are children. If one cannot have this point removed from the Bill as I would like to see, I hope that the right hon. Lady will emphasise to the Commission and others that some definite action should be taken to see that this very unhappy state of affairs does not continue. I should have thought, and I have already discussed this with the right hon. Lady, that a mark could be put on the National Insurance card to show that the man was ordered to pay money.

After all, we have our motor car licences endorsed. I know that the argument is that if an employer saw this on the card he might say that he would not employ this person. That does not hold any water, because if the court was doing its job it could trace this man if he left say a builder's firm to go to a grocers. It could automatically pass this order on from one firm to the other and it would save a great deal of work and trouble. The important thing is that the employer should know that the man has been told by the court that he has to pay.

I will not press this point, but I hope that the right hon. Lady will consider it. The point which I do want to press is that it should be made obligatory upon the Commission to pay the woman the sum of money which she should receive through the courts, plus her supplementation regularly each week instead of her having to go to the courts and then, because there is no money there, round to the Commission office, begging in a way, and then to find that she may get a


certain sum, more or less. It is not even consistent. I hope that the right hon. Lady will look into this very important point.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I am indebted to the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers), who has done so much of this kind, for her kindly references to my own views which have been expressed outside Parliament and which, I therefore feel, I must repeat here.
The whole problem of the fatherless family, of course, goes far beyond the Bill and raises many issues concerning matrimonial and other legislation. However, I am most anxious that we should give more attention to what I have called the "court order mother". There is too much of an over masculinity about the provisions which we make and too little sensitivity to the feelings of a woman who has to go to court to get money. To ordinary people courts have an ambience of criminality; they are places to which one goes when one has done something wrong. It should not be to these places that a deserted wife has to go week after week, often trailing two or three children with her.
I much regret, now that we are setting up this Ministry of Social Security, that apparently we have not been able to bring within its ambit this group of women who seem to need social security in its widest sense probably more than any other group in the country. I agree that a certain amount of discretion is available to National Assistance Board officers and I hope that my right hon. Friend will make it absolutely clear that she wants that disception to be used with the utmost sympathy and consideration. I stress that because with regret I must say that I know of cases under the existing situation in which that has not always been so.
I know of a woman with seven children who has turned up at a court on a Friday morning to collect her money, found that it was not there, and had absolutely no money for the weekend shopping. She was told by the court to go to the National Assistance Board. It cost her her last few coppers in fares to get to the Board, where an officer told her that perhaps the money would

be in the court in the afternoon post and that she ought to go back to the court and wait to see if it was. That woman had no midday meal that day and nor did her children. They got back to the court, but there was no money in the afternoon post and by the time she got back to the Assistance Board on borrowed money, the office was closed.
I hope that that was an exceptional case, but I hope that my right hon. Friend will emphasise to officials that it is the wish of the House of Commons that the utmost consideration should be given to these people and that any steps which can be taken, administratively or locally, to save such women trailing around the police courts should be taken.

Mr. Dean: If only a man may be allowed to intervene briefly in this debate, I should like to support very strongly what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers) and by the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger). They have made a strong case to show that the more we can get the National Assistance Board to do this job and so ensure a regular income to these women, the more the anxieties of these women will be allayed.
I have met, as no doubt other hon. Members have, a number of constituency cases in which the women concerned have had no idea that the Board would take on this job. I had one only a few weeks ago. A woman who was getting assistance and whose husband was in arrears and who was in considerable difficulty had no idea that the Board would do this job for her. I am in no way criticising the officers concerned. It so happened that there had not been a visit for some time and this matter fist came into the open when this lady wrote to me.
I hope that the right hon. Lady will stress to the Commission's officers the need to make widely known the services which they are able to provide for these women.

11.45 a.m.

Dame Irene Ward: I support what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devon-port (Dame Joan Vickers), the hon. Lady


the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) and my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean). As a magistrate who often hears cases of this sort, I should like to know whether there have been discussions with the magistrates about this matter. Quite apart from the human side, it would be of great assistance to the officers of magistrates' courts if this responsibility could be put on to the National Assistance Board.
I have no doubt that hon. Members with magisterial responsibilities will be aware of the great problem which arises when dealing with these cases. After the decisions have been taken, magistrates' courts are not geared to accept the kind of responsibility for individuals which is accepted by the Board.
I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport raise this issue. We have the opportunity to strike a blow to improve the procedure to be followed. When sitting on the bench, I have often thought that decisions represented only rough and ready justice, as the magistrates' courts are not geared to obtaining all the information which is available to the experienced officers of the Board. As the courts are filled every clay with people on ordinary business, it would be a very good thing to be able to reduce that number, and those connected with the procedure of the courts and the staff concerned with dealing with the decisions of magistrates would all be extremely grateful if we could have a procedure such as has been suggested.
I support what has been so eloquently said, but I would also like to know whether this matter has been discussed at top level with the magistrates.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Norman Pentland): Once again, we have reached a Clause to some of the human aspects of which hon. Members have rightly drawn the attention of the Committee. As my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) said, many of the issues go far beyond the provisions of the Clause. I can assure my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers), that the debate will be care-

fully read by those concerned. The answer to the hon. Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) is that, through the Commission, my right hon. Friend will ensure that it is widely known how these women can improve their position, and that they understand their position when they reach these unfortunate circumstances.
We were asked whether the Commission would be exepected to deal sympathetically and with understanding with cases of this sort. Of course it will, as is the case now with the National Assistance Board. I am given to understand that there have already been negotiations with the Justices' Clerks Society on these matters, arising out of the Bill of Baroness Summerskill, in another place.
The Clause empowers the Commission to proceed for recovery of the cost of benefit awarded under the Bill, against persons who are liable for maintenance under Clause 22. The Clause closely follows Section 43 of the National Assistance Act, 1948, except that the orders are to be enforced as affiliation orders and the proceedings are to be domestic proceedings.
All I can say now in reply to the debate—the points we take with full understanding—is that all the matters which have been mentioned will be carefully considered and dealt with sympathetically and with understanding by the Commission.

Dame Joan Vickers: We have had sympathy and understanding before and I am now asking for action. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras has spoken of cases of the type which I have known of a woman going to the National Assistance Board office and being told to return to the courts.
There is also great difficulty when money is supposed to be paid in most cases on Friday. Most offices are closed on Saturday or are open with only a skeleton staff. We need to act in cases like this. This is where the whole thing falls down.
I make a strong plea that as the Commission has the right to recover the money—very often a man is only asked to pay 30s.—it should give the woman £7 a week as of right and collect the 30s. from the man. If the man does not pay,


the Ministry should suffer the loss rather than the individual.
These very small amounts are causing tremendous hardship and insecurity. I thought that the Bill was supposed to put this right. We have had sympathy and understanding. I want to see action and a concrete amount each week on which a woman can rely for looking after herself and her family.

Dame Irene Ward: I should like an answer to a point which I raised. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary referred to consultations arising out of Baroness Summerskill's Bill, but that is only in operation in another place now. We are dealing with a very important Bill today.

Mr. Pentland: Baroness Summerskill's Bill is not in operation in another place now. What the hon. Member for Tyne-mouth read is of a similar type of Bill, which I understand is coming forward at a future date. The negotiations with the Justices' Clerks' Society arose out of the previous Bill brought forward by Baroness Summerskill.

Dame Irene Ward: May I hear what resulted from the discussions with the Society?

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 24.—(AFFILIATION ORDERS.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Albert Booth: I should like some guidance from my right hon. Friend as to the purpose of subsection 4 of the Clause and the machinery that will be available in applying it. I think that it is reasonable to interpret the Clause as saying that the Government believe that there is a necessity for the Minister to be able to obtain benefits which would in other cases be paid to the custodian or parent of an illegitimate child. One can see the likelihood of the necessity of this in the case of an illegitimate child who is being maintained or looked after, possibly in Part III accommoda-

tion or some other form of children's home.
I should like to know the machinery by which the payment will be made. Is it the Minister's intention that in such cases the Minister will make a payment to those maintaining the child? If so, why is it that those who are directly responsible for the child's maintenance should not be the persons to make the application for it?
The Committee will agree that the fact that the child is illegitimate in no way reduces the necessity for seeing that the benefit is paid speedily and effectively on his or her behalf. It may well be that we should be more cautious, more careful and more certain that the benefit will be paid speedily in this case.

Mr. Pentland: My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) can be assured that the subsection to which he referred provides that on making an affiliation order under this Clause, the court may, instead of ordering payment to the mother or other person having custody of the child, order that the payment be made in whole or in part to the Minister. It provides that when this is done the Commission shall be a party to any proceedings for enforcement, revocation, or variation of the order.
As orders under the Clause are affiliation orders, the court must order them to be paid through the clerk of the court, unless the person entitled to the money requests otherwise. Subsection (5) enables the Commission to intervene in proceedings brought by the mother to secure that payments may be made to the Minister. Subsection (6) enables the Commission to apply for payments under an existing affiliation order to be made to the Minister, and where an order is payable to the Minister the child's mother may apply for the payment to be made to her or to a person having custody of the child.
This will enable the Commission to take over the woman's own order if she is paid benefit for the child, and this is the reason for subsection (6). It will enable the woman to apply for the money to be retransferred to her or for an order obtained by the Commission under the earlier part of the Clause, to


be transferred to her if, for example, she ceases to qualify for benefit because she has taken up work.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 25 to 27 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 28.—(THE APPEAL TRIBUNAL.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Dame Joan Vickers: I consider this is be an old-fashioned Clause. I understand that the Minister has power to have on the Tribunal people who appear to the Minister to represent work-people. I have already made a protest at women being designated in the Bill, and thought it unnecessary because they should be treated as human beings. Now we are to have workpeople.
The right hon. Lady will have to be extremely clever if she is to know who represents workpeople. What kind of references will she have, and what kind of inquiry will be made into their background? I should have thought that this would make class distinctions even greater than they are at present. I thought that we were going to get away from this. I pray in aid the opinions of some of her hon. Friends. On 11th February, 1948, the late Mr. James Carmichael, Labour M.P. for Glasgow, Bridgeton, moved an Amendment, on the National Assistance Board Bill with regard to workpeople as members of the Appeals Tribunal.
12 noon.
I will not quote all he said but take two points. He started by saying:
I hope that my trade union friends will not object to what I am about to say, but I an more anxious to have a member of a local authority sitting on these tribunal. A trade unionist's functions are well defined in his responsibility to his work-people; but I think that a member of a local authority has a function that cannot he performed by an employer … I think that 'work-people' is too ambiguous a term to be included, and I would like the Minister to look at that again. I will not press the Amendment, but I plead with him to realise that important work is being done by the local authorities and how valuable it is that they should be represented on the tribunals."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C, 11th February, 1948; c. 2787–8.]

We think that all sections of the people should be members according to their understanding and their knowledge and not because they appear to come from certain sections of the population.
Furthermore, I put down an Amendment to the Race Relations Bill, and I said to the then Home Secretary that I thought that on the Board and the conciliation committees there should be the same sort of people. I said that people should be appointed:
by reason of colour, race, ethnic or national origin".
I said this because I felt that many people in this country had little understanding of the origins of these people, the countries from which they came, and their language, because many of them did not speak English. My Amendment was turned down.
The then Home Secretary said:
We envisage the Board as being limited in number. … We think it essential that we should obtain the right people to serve on the Board, and that that shall be the sole criterion. By 'right people' I mean people, whatever their colour, race or origin, whose character and intellect are such as in the judgment of the Minister responsible, mainly myself at the moment, would he able to bring to bear a mature and balanced judgment in … the committees. The prime object we have is to select the three people whose character and qualifications best fit them for the work which they have to undertake which we not only hope, but firmly intend, should be entirely divorced from political influence or pressure.
He went on to say, a little later:
It would seriously impair their qualifications for that job if they were selected in any sense because they have a loyalty to any particular racid group or minority group.
One cannot say that of any particular workpeople—whatever that means in this day and age. He went on:
The last thing that we want is to do anything which could possibly seem to represent jostling or fighting to any particular group."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th July, 1965; Vol. 716, c. 1022–3.]
That was the view expressed by a Minister who has gone to another place, who felt this very strongly, and listening to his reasoning I withdrew my Amendment. I would hope that the right hon. Lady herself would agree, and in any case I would be very interested to hear from her this morning how she would define "workpeople". What does "workpeople" mean? What qualifications do people have to have to be workpeople?


Do they have to be wage earners, or can they be wage earners, or can they be paid monthly? Do they have to have been to a certain type of school? Are they people who work with their hands? can they not be clerical workers?
Before she decides to write this term in I hope she will give this further consideration. Scotland, I suppose, has less class distinction than Great Britain has as a whole, and the right hon. Lady comes from Scotland. She will see, I hope, that this term is really unworkable, if we were to try to define that category. Therefore, I hope that she will be kind enough, on Report to remove this classification, as I would call it, so that the people appointed can be judged entirely on their merits.

Mr. Braine: I am sure that the whole Committee all be indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devon-port (Dame Joan Vickers) for drawing attention to what I must say is the rather extraordinary wording used in the Bill where it is laid down that one of the persons appointed to an appeals tribunal shall be appointed
from among persons appearing to the Minister to represent work-people.
I would ask the Minister where else in the statutes is the Minister required to act on what appears to him to be a fact? How in this case does a suitable person appear to be suitable? Must he wear dungarees and carry a spanner? Must he have a trade union card? What appears to one Minister to be a suitable person to represent workpeople may not appear so to the Minister's successor.
It would be difficult to excuse drafting of this kind if it followed a precedent, but I rise to say that it does not. I refer to paragraph 3 of the Fifth Schedule to the National Assistance Act, 1948, which lays down that
The chairman and one of the other members of every Tribunal shall be appointed by the Minister, and the other member shall be appointed by the Board from a panel of persons nominated by the Minister to represent work-people.
That is perfectly clear and reasonable and straightforward.
As I think the Minister will presently say that it has always been the case that nominees of trades councils and other equivalent bodies should sit on National Assistance appeal tribunals I will say that

there is no one on this side of the Committee who would wish to alter that very happy arrangement, but I would hope that we could avoid this sort of imprecise language—I might almost say, sloppy drafting—which has crept into this part of the Bill, I hope that the Minister can give an undertaking that she will do something at a later stage to put the matter beyond any doubt.

Miss Herbison: I am not surprised that we have had this short debate on this matter, though, perhaps, we are making a little heavy weather of it. What we want to ensure is that there will be on these tribunals people who understand the kinds of people who will be coming to them to try to make a case. There will be all sorts of people, particularly if we get applications for non-contributory benefit from a wider field. It is merely to ensure that there will be these people of understanding.
I do not feel "hot under the collar" whether they are called workpeople, or trades union people, or what they are called. All I want to ensure is that when the tribunals are set up there will be on them men and women who will have some knowledge of the background of those who are coming before them, that they will have some knowledge of the kind of lives those people live and of their needs. That is what I want to ensure.
This provision is not unlike the provision in the Fifth Schedule to the National Assistance Act, repealed by Schedule 8. So, although someone may take objection to the term "workpeople", I think that I have said sufficient to show that there is still need on any such tribunal to have people who have a great deal in common with the kinds of persons coming before them, and who will well understand their needs. I am not "hot under the collar" about whether we call them workpeople or not.

Mr. Braine: Before the right hon. Lady sits down, I would say at once that we entirely agree that it is desirable that people with this kind of background should be so appointed. The right hon. Lady referred to the Fifth Schedule to the National Assistance Act. My point was that the wording in that Schedule is precise. It is good sound drafting and I cannot understand why that precedent


was not followed in the Bill. We will not press the point, but simply ask the right hon. Lady to consider whether the rather loose and imprecise wording employed in the Bill might be replaced by something much more precise, which would have exactly the same effect as the one which she desires.

Dame Irene Ward: I wanted to ask the right hon. Lady, after all the arguments and her explanation, whether she could not give an assurance that the matter will be reconsidered in the light of what has been said. It seems to me that everybody wants the same objective. I do not think that this drafting is right. As this Clause deals with appeals, I should also like to raise one point which has caused me considerable surprise, though I am sure that it is absolutely in order as it relates to the Appeal Tribunal.
As we are concerned with ensuring that people who go before the Appeal Tribunal have confidence in it, I wanted an explanation about why, when an appeal against refusal of pensions and that type of problem comes before the Tribunal, the Minister tells the Tribunal, "This must be accepted" or something like that. I am sure that that is quite in order, but is she aware of how devastating that is to somebody who goes before the Tribunal and who has not been told the background of this situation?
I have been handling the case of a deserted wife——

The Chairman: The hon. Lady will understand that this Clause deals only with the composition of the Tribunal and not with how it works.

Dame Irene Ward: But I am relating this to the composition of the Tribunal. I can say specifically that, if the Tribunal had been properly composed on the occasion which I was about to quote, somebody on the Tribunal would have realised the difficulty of anyone appearing before the Tribunal to be told that she can put forward no arguments, because the Minister had already said—this is quite in order, I am sure—that the Ministry posit on had to be taken.
The woman appearing was told that she could not even argue her case, which I am sure has some relevance to the situation. In view of the right hon. Lady's concern with getting the proper

composition, with which we all agree, surely there ought to have been someone on the Tribunal who could have explained to my constituent the extraordinary situation of her arriving for an appeal before a tribunal, to be told that she can say nothing. She found herself outside the appeal hall, not having been able to argue her case, although she had thought that she was going before the Tribunal to do so.
12.15 p.m.
I consider that had the Tribunal been properly composed, this would have been a good idea. As the right hon. Lady is concerned with the composition of the Tribunal, surely somebody should be there to explain to a bewildered woman why she was called to make an appeal when the Minister had issued these instructions. No one on the Tribunal took the trouble to explain to my constituent why she was there if she was not allowed to make a case. I do not consider, in the light of the composition of tribunals, that people have all the knowledge they ought to have about human beings.

The Chairman: The Chairman rose——

Dame Irene Ward: But I should like an answer!

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 30.—(FAILURE TO MAINTAIN.)

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Dame Joan Vickers: I should like to draw the Minister's attention to this Clause, because it is an extremely harsh one. It says that a person persistently refusing or neglecting to maintain himself shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £100 or three months in prison or both. When a person gets to this stage, I do not think that this Clause will help in any way. I understood that the present Home Secretary was reviewing the question of people being sent to prison for being drunk or in debt, and so on, and that he hopes to bring forward a Bill on the subject later this Session.
I believe that there are over 30,000 people in prison This Clause will add to the problem, because most people


concerned have a low I.Q., and are not able to reinstate themselves as is suggested. I do not argue that people should get out of their personal responsibilities, but the Clause refers to a person who "persistently" refuses to maintain himself. If a person does that, he cannot be of normal intelligence. He would have the money for a fine and would, therefore, face a sentence. But I should have thought that it was not prison to which he should be sent, but to a hostel, or a training centre for rehabilitation so that he might regain his self-respect.
We all know people of this type, who have given up all form of responsibility towards themselves and their dependants. But sending them to prison will not give them any further initiative or help in their earnings. I hope that on Report the right hon. Lady will do away with such a harsh sentence as
shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to both.
This seems to be an unfortunate suggestion.
As I mentioned just now, one does not want to rid an individual of any form of personal responsibility, but I cannot see that sending such a person to prison will help in this case. Perhaps I could refer again to the Race Relations Bill. It was agreed in that Bill that there should be conciliation measures rather than sending people to prison or fining them. Surely in this case, we should try rehabilitation measures rather than prison or fines.
Subsection (2) says:
For the purposes of this section a person shall not be deemed to refuse or neglect to maintain himself or any other person by reason only of anything done or omitted in futherance of a trade dispute.
I agree with that, but this seems a very odd subsection to put into this Clause. It seems to have no relevance. I suppose that one has to safeguard this circumstance, but I should have thought that it needed a different cause, as it relates to a different subject.
I hope that the right hon. Lady will make the sentence less harsh. There must be certain measures, I suppose, to deter an individual, but I should have thought that once a person reaches the state outlined in the Clause, in which he
… persistently refuses or neglects to maintain himself",

this was a time when he should be sent to a hostel or a rehabilitation centre and certainly not to prison. I do not see that prison will encourage him to maintain himself or to look after himself or his dependants better in future.
The result of putting such a person in prison would be to decrease his sense of responsibility for himself and his family. I have often found that these people do not even make contact with their families when they come out of prison. They have got rid of their responsibilities, and they think this is fine, and they revert to what has been their normal way of life in the past. I hope that if the right hon. Lady can remove from the Bill the proposals for imprisonment or a fine, she will at least take out the words "or both". None of these people will be able to pay £100.

Mr. Pentland: The whole Committee is fully aware of the deep concern felt by the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers) about all these wider aspects of social problems. She has revealed this concern many times in the House, and now she has very properly once again taken the opportunity to draw attention to these matters.
I assure the hon. Lady that most of the treatment which she has suggested will already have been attempted with these people long before we deal with them under this Clause. It has been attempted continually with the kind of people with whom we are concerned. A small minority of them—not a very large number—are quite adequate to look after themselves and their wives and families and quite capable of fulfilling their obligations. They are not all capable of doing so and we accept much that the hon. Lady said, but much that she suggested is being attempted all along the line and much work is done to help these people. But the Clause must remain in the Bill to deal with those who could fulfil their responsibilities and obligations to their wives and families but will not do so.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 31 to 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chairman: The only new Clause selected is new Clause No. 3 in the name of the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger).

New Clause.—(WRITTEN EXPLANATIONS.)

(1) Any person to whom a supplementary pension or allowance is paid under this Act shall be given a written explanation of the way in which the pension or allowance was calculated and of any change in it.

(2) Any person whose application for a pension or allowance is refused under this Act shall be given a written explanation of the reason for the refusal. If the reason for the refusal is that the persons' resources are sufficient to meet his requirements, the explanation given under subsection (1) shall show the way in which his resources and requirements were calculated.

(3) Where benefit is reduced under paragraphs 4 or 5 of Schedule 2 or the amount of increase under paragraph 13(1)(a) is less than the net rent payable, a written explanation of the reduction or the reasons for adding less than the net rent shall be given to the person in receipt of benefit.—[Mrs. Lena Jeger.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
The purpose of the Clause is to lay upon the officers the duty of giving a written explanation to applicants for supplementary allowances. This may seem a small point, but to me it is very important. We want the Bill completely to change the whole atmosphere of our social security provisions, and therefore we have to help the public to realise the change and we want them to have some direct personal experience of this change. We do not want them to go as applicants to an authoritarian set-up and before officials who can come to decisions without any duty of explanation having been laid upon them.
Such a situation immediately creates a feeling of inferiority among applicants. We want this legislation to work as a dialogue between people who are trying to help and those who are seeking help. I am sure that the best officials would want this to be the case.
How can we do this? I suggest that one way would be to write into the Bill the need for an applicant to be given a full written explanation of the decision, whatever it may be, which has been reached in his case. Under the Bill we

are giving very wide discretion to the officers—and quite rightly. This does not arise as a problem where the benefits are laid down statutorily, but it is puzzling to many people who go for supplementary help and who feel that their application has been refused whereas a neighbour is getting a few shillings more. This can create much ill-feeling among people. I do not see why the citizens of this country, who are financing the allowances paid under the Bill, should not be fully entitled to an explanation of the basis of the calculation which affects them individually.
As I said, we are giving very wide discretion to our officials, and such a proposal would be useful because the fact of having to put something in writing is a very useful check upon discretion. It means that a little more thought has to be given to the application and it also emphasises that the benefit is being considered as of right. Those two points are very important. I understand that at present officers do not even have to record the reasons for their refusal of supplementary benefits and there is, therefore, no chance of review because the decisions are not even recorded in the official records.
I want us to take a long step forward and to see not only that fairness and generosity is applied, but that it is seen by the applicant to be applied. The fact of writing down the decision would ensure the possibility of review. Once a decision has been committed to paper, at least it can be shown to somebody else and questioned, whereas on the present basis of a conversation only, it is difficult for the person to take the decision elsewhere for review. He has no information as to how the decision was reached and it is, therefore, not always easy for him to appeal. When people are in the kind of trouble which this Bill seeks to help them overcome, they are very often least able to deal confidently with officialdom. It is the deprived and the more inadequate citizens who are most often inclined to have an inferiority complex, in any event, when dealing with such a situation, and they would be very much helped by my proposal.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think that the next point which I make is frivolous. If she agrees to send written explanations to applicants, I hope that


they will be less scruffy than some of the communications which come—I must say from her Department, because we are dealing with her Department and I should be out of order if I referred to the generality of Government communications. But these communications are often on a dirty bit of buff paper, in small print, innocent of the influence of any of the advances in typography or printing of our present century, and they are often received by people who are not used to getting letters.
12.30 p.m.
Hon. Members are accustomed to receiving beautifully typed letters on splendid paper in "posh" envelopes, I receive so many letters that I no longer worry about the appearance of them. However, to people who seldom get a letter and who are waiting for a communication which may be the most important one in their lives at that time, such correspondence should not be written on a badly folded scrap of brown paper, usually in the form of a printed statement so impersonal that only the applicant's name is added to it.
Having explained why full written explanations of decisions should be given to applicants, I further appeal for these explanations to be given in a presentable way and should be a joy to behold, whatever their contents.

Mr. Booth: I support the new Clause and everything said by my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Jeger) and hope that if or when these explanations are written they are written in language which the applicant can understand.
As a comparative newcomer to this place, since becoming an hon. Member I have had to indulge in a great deal of letter-writing and reading. I may be a little better able to judge the difficulty one sometimes has in understanding the language often used by Government Departments than more experienced hon. Members who have become familiar with this language. Indeed, over the years they may unconsciously have learned a new language which is not understood by a great many of our constituents. I confess that much of it may not be fully understood by me.
I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that the letters which will go out if the new Clause is accepted are written by people who understand the nature of the problem and the applicants. It should be remembered that in some parts of Britain the way in which people address one another and the way in which ideas are communicated and explanations understood is so involved that it must be recorded on tape and played back to enable university dons to interpret what has been said. This problem of language exists in the British Isles and it is extremely relevant to this matter.
There is a conflict in the requests made in the new Clause. On the one hand, it asks for a formula to be established by which an amount is calculated. On the other it attempts to show that discretion has been used responsibly and that proper concern has been shown for all the relevant factors. However, this conflict is not an argument against the new Clause but a reason for saying that there is a real problem to be resolved in communicating these matters to the public.

Mr. Thomas Swain: I support the new Clause, particularly since there is an important precedent for this type of action in legislation of this sort. I refer to the Industrial Injuries Acts. When an amount is assessed under that legislation the person concerned receives a communication from the insurance officer stating, in simple terms, how the assessment was arrived at and a breakdown of the figures is given. That information is of great importance, particularly if the injured person concerned wishes to make an application to appeal. It not only helps that person to put over his case to his representative but assists the representative to present the case to the tribunal.
The new Clause, if accepted, would not interfere with the general principles of the Bill, which are good, and I therefore urge my right hon. Friend for the sake of simplicity and in the interests of humanity and understanding to accept the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) and ensure that the letters of explanation are in language which they can understand.

Mr. John Pardoe: I, too, support the new Clause. As a new


hon. Member, in a large part of the correspondence with which I have had to deal—and I am sure that this applies to hon. Members generally—I have been concerned with the problem of obtaining information about the decisions of bureaucracy so that it is possible to understand precisely what action has been taken. I have had much correspondence in the sphere with which we are dealing.
After all, we want to humanise bureaucracy. If we must have it and it we accept that it is inevitable, we should make it as acceptable as possible. A large part of the individual's frustration, particularly in social security matters, is this business of not being able to understand the position.
I cannot see any reason why the new Clause should not be accepted. The usual reason given for not accepting proposals of this sort is that they cost money. I cannot believe that the additional letters which would have to be written under the new Clause—and I trust that they will be well written and well set out—would cost much money.
When hon. Members write to the body which up to now has been known as the National Assistance Board we usually receive an explanation in reasonably simple language, and that information can then be transmitted to the constituent concerned. There is no reason why this dual process—of the hon. Member having to get this information and then pass it to the constituent—should he involved. Our constituents should be given this information in language they can understand.

Miss Herbison: I am glad that we have had this discussion, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) for moving the new Clause. It is evident, from the speeches of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, that they support this proposal aid do so out of great experience from their dealings with constituents in this matter.
My hon. Friend explained the purpose of the new Clause cogently and gave excellent reasons why written explanations should be provided. I say at once that I and the Government are in agreement with her on this point, which is that people are entitled—and I say this

advisedly—to know where they stand. I also agree that in a scheme in which we are stressing the right to benefit—and this is something which I hope we will get over to the public between now and the end of the year—we must see that as much information as possible is given to those who make application. I suggest, however, that this is not a matter for legislation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) posed what he considered might be a real problem, and I assure him that it had occurred to me. It might indeed be unwise and in some instances quite impracticable in such a scheme to tie a form of notification to a specific statutory formula.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South, who moved the new Clause, and those who have shown interest in it that it is our firm intention that the administration of the new scheme will be developed to meet the major points that my hon. Friend and others have raised. Indeed, we have already taken the decision to introduce a written explanation of award or refusal of benefit as standard practice, at least for the supplementary pensioners, as soon as the manpower is available.
The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) spoke about cost. I am making no case whatever about cost because I agree so much with what has been said, but there is one other point to which I must pay the greatest attention. Even if, right from the beginning of the scheme, we were to give this written explanation only to those who were having supplementary pensions, this would mean another 150 extra staff. I am talking only of the beginning of the scheme. If we were to give notices in all cases, that would require many more staff to do the work.
When it is a case of people having right to a benefit, the Government and I do not want to keep anybody in the dark about their entitlement to it. Indeed, even at present when the National Assistance Board makes a decision, the applicant can ask for a written notification. This is the wording which it is the practice of the National Assistance Board to use:
If you would like a full explanation of the way in which your allowance has been calculated, or to bring anything to my notice


which you would like me to consider, I shall be glad to write to you if you will let me know.
It goes on to say:
You can use the enclosed blue form, which is already addressed and needs no stamp, or you can ask the visiting officer when he next calls.
That is the existing practice.
I know that my hon. Friends will ask how many of these people would even know or take the trouble to write the note on the blue form. I simply emphasise again that it seems to me and to the Government important that there should be these written explanations. We do not think that the way to do it is by a statutory obligation, but I give the assurance that it is our intention to do it.
I stress that to get the scheme off the ground and to ensure that it will work smoothly at the outset—and we hope that the beginning will be a little before the end of this year—I must ask the officers of this new Department to work a great deal of overtime. From the devoted service which they have always given to these people, I know that they will respond to that call for overtime, but in view of this call for overtime I would not feel that at the very beginning of the scheme I could impose this additional burden upon them. I hope that the assurance which I have given that my intention is exactly the same as my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South has in mind will suffice in this instance.

Miss Mervyn Pike: I do not want to delay the Committee, and I did not intervene before because I wanted to hear what the Minister had to say. I am glad to say that on this occasion I am in complete agreement with her. We all recognise the force of the argument which has been put by the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger), but equally this is a matter in which I accept the Minister's good intentions and assurances.
I hope, however, that when the notices ultimately are issued the right hon. Lady will accept her hon. Friend's advice and have them in a form that pays regard to all the new techniques and that the manner of presentation will be acceptable to all of us. In these circumstances, we

would do well to take the Minister's advice.

12.45 p.m.

Mr. J. J. Mendelson: One element troubled me a little in the reply of my right hon. Friend the Minister and I would like her to be a little more detailed. My right hon. Friend began by saying that she accepted the main point of the new Clause. She did not say which point she did not accept. There might be the crux of the matter. My right hon. Friend went on quickly to say that there were administrative difficulties in implementing this proposal at the beginning of the scheme, which is an altogether different point. She went on quickly also to say that she did not want to be tied or to tie the officers concerned to a particular statutory form.
Are there any particular parts or points in the new Clause that my right hon. Friend would not like to see introduced? All of us with experience of appearing before National Assistance Board tribunals as a friend of a pensioner will know that by the time one appears before such a tribunal, there is considerable tension between the pensioner concerned and the officer involved. This often has made relations difficult for a considerable time. It has also led to reluctance on the part of the pensioner to give as much information as he otherwise might be prepared to give.
When I have questioned pensioners on whose behalf I have appeared before such tribunals, I have often been told, "Well, he was not the sort of person who made me feel that I could talk to him about all these things". That is to be set against the many officers who have created the contrary impression of confidence, frankness and openness, when a pensioner has freely given all the information at his disposal. There are, however, those other cases, and in those cases we have often found that with the co-operation of the chairman of the tribunal we have opened some of the recesses of the mind of the officer concerned and have found an amount of prejudice in those recesses. No officer, in any service or Department, can be assumed to be perfect from the start. We keep on repeating in these debates that most of the officers are doing an excellent job, and I have joined in the praise on those occasions, as I do again today. The legislature, however,


must be concerned with the other cases, and they are bound to exist.
I find sometimes that in the decision by the local officer concerned there is prejudice because of the way in which his mind works and because of the way in which the mind of the applicant works. I regard the new Clause as particularly valuable, because it would oblige the officer in the first place, long before one ever gets to an appeals tribunal, to face his own prejudices in any particular case. Nothing is more helpful to face one's own prejudices than to have something put down on paper.
It seems to me to be particularly valuable that the second of the three points of the new Clause should be included in the administrative arrangements which my right hon. Friend the Minister has mentioned. I refer to subsection (2) which states:
Any person whose application for a pension or allowance is refused under this Act shall be given a written explanation of the reason for the refusal. If the reason for the refusal is that the persons' resources are sufficient to meet his requirements, the explanation given under subsection (1) shall show the way in which his resources and requirements were calculated.
That is of the greatest importance, because very often there is a conflict in the mind of the applicant and in the mind of the officer who has made the calculation as to whether it has been done justifiably and justly.
Although the management of the Clause is in the hands of my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger), I urge my right hon. Friend to give the Committee a further explanation as to whether she accepts all three points in the Clause and is prepared to give the assurance that she will make all three points part of the administrative procedure which she has promised.

Miss Herbison: I will deal, first, with one point which I did not deal with, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) and of which I have been reminded by the hon. Lady the Member for Melton (Miss Pike). I clearly understand how important it is that any communication sent, especially to an old person or, indeed, to anyone in need should be in the simplest language possible so

that the recipient is able to understand it. I am certain that every attempt will be made to do this.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) has raised a number of points. I shall not go over all that I have already said, because I am anxious that we should get Third Reading today, if we are to make the payments before the end of this year. I repeat my assurances. As soon as possible, at least those getting a supplementary pension will receive a written explanation. Others, if there is a refusal, or if they are not clear, or if they do not think that the amount they are receiving is sufficient, will right from the beginning be able to ask for a written explanation, as they can do at the moment.
The most important thing is to get the scheme off the ground and introduce these benefits as urgently as possible. Then the fullest consideration will be given to all the points which have been made in the debate on this new Clause. I, like the whole Committee, want to ensure, not only that justice is done, but that it is clearly seen to be done by all these people.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: In view of my right hon. Friend's assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule I agreed to.

Schedule 2.—(PROVISIONS FOR DETERMINING RIGHT TO AND AMOUNT OF BENEFIT.)

Dame Joan Vickers: I beg to move Amendment No. 4, in page 21, line 4, to leave out paragraph 2.
This is a very mean provision. I was interested to hear the Minister say that she wants everyone to benefit as much as possible and that justice must clearly be seen to be done. With the cost of living always rising—we have heard today that there has been another increase recently—it is essential that any money due should be paid.
On Second Reading the right hon. Lady said this:
There are some modifications to the basic rule. First, should the deficiency of resources below requirements be less than 2s., no benefit is due. Most of us have had experience


of an old person making application to the National Assistance Board and getting a book of orders for 1s. a week. Most of us know the resentment, and sometimes the bitterness, which has been caused because of that. This will no longer obtain under the new rules."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th May. 1966: Vol. 729 c. 341.]
I suggest that there was not any bitterness. I know a number of people who have received Is. a week. This amount is an enormous benefit to people in a very low income category. It can mean more gas. It can mean another bottle of milk. It can mean a loaf of bread. It can mean some soup. An old person can get to the butcher's and get some bones to make soup. It can mean potatoes. If 1s. is put in the gas meter an old person can be warm for an extra period during the day. It can give an old person sufficient hot water to fill up a hot water bottle.
Any money due to old people should be paid to them. If it is too difficult admistratively for small sums to be paid weekly under the new system, why should not old people have either a monthly or a quarterly voucher? This would give them a nice little nest egg. It is particularly mean that the Government should envisage depriving anybody of money to which he is entitled.
Persons who make application and who are granted only a small amount become known to the Board. We are told that the Board will visit these people. Circumstances change. It may be found on visiting them that their circumstances have changed and that they are entitled to an extra amount. This would be a double advantage of following my suggestion. By the very fact that officers were in contact with these people protection and security would be ensured. I hope that the Minister will agree to delete this paragraph and ensure that these individuals are given the money to which they are obviously entitled. If they are entitled to have it, however small the amount may be, they should have it. They should not be deprived of anything which is theirs by right.

Mr. Pentland: Once again the hon. Lady for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers) has deployed her case with her usual sincerity and compassion in arguing for the deletion of a provision with which she disagrees. This proposal

in paragraph 2 of the Schedule, for a lower limit of payment, and for rounding off the benefit payable, is not new. Provisions for a lower limit of payment and for rounding the benefit payable are in the National Assistance Scheme, the lower limit being Is. weekly and the allowance being rounded to the nearest 6d. These National Assistance rules, which were taken over unchanged from the Unemployment Assistance Scheme of 1934, have remained unchanged since 1948. Therefore, the proposal in the Bill to increase these sums to 2s. and 1s. respectively are, in the Government's view, no more than some recognition of the change in values.
The effect of abolishing the two rules would be nonsensical. As to the lower, limit despite what the hon. Lady has said, some older people feel insulted if they are told by the Board that they are entitled to receive only 1s. per week. There was general agreement when my right hon. Friend made this point on Second Reading. Older people would be much more upset if told that they were entitled to, say, 2d. a week, but this would be the effect of the Amendment in borderline cases. It is a matter of judgment as to where the line should be drawn. The figure should not be too high. We would accept that. But 2s. a week is certainly not excessive in the Government's view when we consider a basic rate for a householder of over £4 a week.
1.0 p.m.
With regard to the abolition of the second rule—the rounding rule—benefit ending in odd pence would be payable here. At the moment this would only be the case in theory. In practice it could not be paid to the last penny because a rounding rule having existed for so long, the Department is not equipped with machines to produce order books for amounts ranging in all the penny stages from one penny to eleven pence. It may be that given time, when perhaps we have a fully computerised system operating in the Department, these difficulties of the odd pence could be overcome, but I cannot conceive, nor can the Government, that anyone really wants the new scheme to be run on the basis of calculating to the last penny pensions with such rates as 18s. 1d., or


19s. 7d. I am sure that pensioners themselves would find such a system thoroughly irksome. The basic approach in this Bill, as has been said, on more than one occasion, is that non-contributory benefit should be less, not more, finely adjusted than National Assistance.
The Committee may like to know—for I am sure these are the people whom he hon. Lady is concerned about more than anyone else—how many people are at present getting assistance of less than 2s. a week. At the end of 1965 there were about 4,500 people receiving 1s. a week and 8,800 people receiving 1s. 6d. or 2s. a week. However, it must be borne in mind that as a consequence of this Bill nearly all of these people will be entitled to considerably more by way of supplementary pension or allowances because of the higher rates which we are proposing. The householder who now gets Is. a week will normally become entitled to at least 6s. a week because of the 5s. increase in the basic rate.
In any event—and here I am afraid we are once again indulging in repetition, for we have said it so many times that I nave become weary of it—nobody will lose as a result of the change. A person already receiving assistance of 1s. 6d. and who for some reason or other does not become entitled to 2s. a week under the new scheme will have his or her position preserved by the transitional provisions of Schedule 7. The principle of minimum payment and rounding rules is a common sense one and, indeed, it is well established. All we are doing in this Bill is to bring the amounts up to date and we clearly must have some provisions embodied in the Bill.
Having said that, and while, for these reasons, we cannot accept the Amendment, there is a related point upon which the hon. Lady did not touch. It is whether this rule as it stands is appropriate to the circumstances where the payment of noncontributory benefit is combined with some other payment for which the Minister is responsible. Nobody wants awards of trifling sums to be made as separate amounts on a separate order; but when one comes to combined payments it may be better, in the Government's view, to apply the rules in paragraph 2 to the combined payment rather than to the non-contributory benefit alone.
Hon. Members may know that it is already the practice to make a combined payment of unemployment benefit and National Assistance. As the White Paper indicates, it is the Government's intention to introduce combined payments of retirement pension and supplementary pension on a single order book as soon as we can.
Therefore, we are now considering whether the present provision deals adequately with this situation. If we find that it does not, it may be necessary for us to put down an Amendment, perhaps in another place, but we cannot in any circumstances accept the hon. Lady's Amendment. If, in the light of what I have said about further consideration being given to at least one aspect of the Amendment, the hon. Lady is prepared to withdraw the Amendment, fair enough; but if not, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Dame Irene Ward: I was a little distressed when the right hon. Lady the Minister said earlier that she wanted to get on with the Third Reading of the Bill. That means that whatever we say and whatever the subject of the Amendment which we may be discussing, whether we feel we have got a good case or not, the right hon. Lady has made up her mind that she is not going to accept any Amendments. Presumably if any Amendments were accepted we could not go on to the Third Reading of the Bill.
We may not move Amendments which are acceptable to the Government, but I think it is a little distressing from the point of view of the people whose cases we are arguing with such sincerity and knowledge, if we are told that the whole object of the exercise is to get on to the Third Reading of the Bill. I am certain that the right hon. Lady, for whom I have a great affection and admiration, did not intend to speak in that sense, but it is not a good thing in Committee suddenly to be told that we must get on with the Committee stage so that we can have the Third Reading today.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary's comments on the Amendment were, I thought, a little muddled. As I understood, one of the reasons why he did not want to accept the Amendment had something to do with computers. He


added that if the present arrangements did not work out, perhaps an Amendment could be moved in another place. I should like to know what is going to happen about the computers in the time before the Bill reaches another place. Are we going to get the computers? Perhaps I was not being very intelligent, but I did not understand these remarks of the hon. Gentleman.
In any event, I wish to reinforce what my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers) has said. Small amounts are tremendously important, but I am not at all pleased with the idea of half a crown a week for coal. This is a ridiculous arrangement. If we do not like small amounts, why give them?

Dame Joan Vickers: As the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has given me certain assurances and has said that he will consider some form of Amendment in another place. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I beg to move Amendment No. 7, in page 21, line 39, to leave out from "allowance" to the end of line 40 and to insert:
has been subject to the condition of section 11 of this Act for not longer than six months.

The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Sydney Irving): I suggest that it might be convenient to discuss, at the same time, Amendment No. 8, in page 21, to leave out lines 41 to 43.

Mrs. Jeger: Yes, Mr. Irving.
I have put down this Amendment because I am very much concerned about the problem of continuing poverty which is afflicting so many people. As the Schedule stands—I find this confusing, and, for the benefit of others who may be similarly confused, I am referring to page 21, line 39—we ought to look for a way by which the situation of these poorer families can be ameliorated.
I am directly concerned about the expression "adjustment to normal earnings". I have had experience of families of the sort involved here. The man has, perhaps, been out of work for a very long time. I think of one who came out of a long period in a mental hospital, who

was rehabilitated as far as he ever will be, but who remains a very inadequate person, a poor worker. His family is suffering from the wage-stop under the provisions relating to adjustment to normal earnings, but his wife says to me, "I cannot imagine what his normal earnings ever were or ever could be. No one wants to employ him". In such cases a figure is arrived at—I do not say without sympathy—which in many instances of long-term unemployment is confusing and a source of trouble to the families concerned.
Turning for a moment to Amendment No. 8, I am not clear as regards the long-term sick, but I understand that there is a practice—I do not believe that it is laid down anywhere—by which the wage stop does not normally apply for longer than six months. This may be my understanding because my experience has been among particularly sympathetic officers, but I have certainly found that, normally, in cases of sickness there is at least a review of the family's position automatically after six months. I am very glad to have the opportunity to raise these matters and express my own confusion about them if only to enable the Committee to be informed of the true situation. It is not clear to me, and there must be people outside who have similar difficulty in understanding what we are trying to do in this connection.
A strong case can be made for an adjustment to earnings so as not to discourage people from going to work. No hon. Member would wish to see a situation which discouraged people from working at a time when the country needed the fullest possible employment. But I submit that this difficulty could be met by wider use of Clause 30 which gives the Minister power to deal with people who wilfully refuse employment. This would be a better way of dealing with this matter than by financial hardships such as will be laid upon many families under the present proposals.
The difficulty is that the more we improve the benefits the more we increase the number of families suffering under the adjustment to earnings rule. Unfortunately, the number is already rising. In December, 1965, there were 16,000 families suffering from the wage stop, 2,000 more than in the previous year, although the total number of unemployed


had fallen. Not only is the absolute figure increasing but the proportion is increasing as well. This calls for anxious attention.
The only way I can see within the terms of the Bill and, I hope, the bounds of order is to suggest that we should review all wage-stop cases at the end of six months. I suggest this recalling that my right hon. Friend said last Monday that the problem of the family receiving less than the basic allowances is a wide and serious one. Would it not be possible for her administratively to ask for each case to be looked at every six months?
1.15 p.m.
Some of these families have deductions of over £3 a week. In 1965, 3,000 families had deductions in their benefit of £3 a week because even those modest standards of benefit would have provided them with £3 more than the man had from his income while at work. Families living at that level cannot have savings or reserves of any kind. Usually, they do their shopping from day to day and their housekeeping from week to week. Perhaps, over a week or two, it is possible to manage, but what we are doing by allowing the wage-stop to continue for a long time is to create a situation of chronic poverty for them out of which they can never emerge, a chronic poverty which becomes worse as time goes on, as whatever small savings they have disappear, as clothes are worn out, as furniture gets broken, and so on. We all know of the accumulating problems.
I appreciate that I must not ask my right hon. Friend to do too much today. It is her wish, I know, to give the most generous treatment possible to these people, and this whole subject is part of another study. But I wonder whether it would be possible administratively to have a review of each of these cases at, say, six months so that the officer could look again at the question of relevance to normal earnings in the area. There might he changes in the area. There might be changes in the employment pattern in the district. There might be new circumstances for the family. It might then be possible for the officer, looking at the case every six months at least, to find other supplementary ways of bringing the kind of discretionary assistance which should be possible.

Mr. David Winnick: As I managed to speak on the Second Reading, I had not thought to intervene at this stage, but I feel that I must support the case put by my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger). On Second Reading, I expressed my deep concern that we were intending to continue the wage-stop. I am sure that the Minister will remember what I said. I should have thought it possible between the Second Reading and this stage for the whole matter to be looked at again. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that, since the Second Reading, there has been a good deal of comment in the Press and by people who have been associated with the Labour Party side of social security policy expressing concern that the wage-stop is to continue.
We speak here of the poverty which still continues in our country. We recognise that those who are at present on National Assistance and those who will be on the minimum benefits proposed under the Bill comprise a group who, as my hon. Friend said, are living well below even the poverty line as it is recognised at present. This is why, bearing in mind the economic circumstances of the country, I find it so difficult to understand why we cannot be somewhat more generous than we are to people in these circumstances.
There are some who argue that the solution lies in the level of wages, that people should receive a higher wage so that their earnings would not be so low as to make them subject to the wage-stop. It may be of interest to hon. Members to know that I have put down a Question to the Minister of Labour, which has not yet been reached, asking him what steps he will take to try to improve the level of wages received by people whose present earnings are so low that, when out of work, they are subject to the wage-stop.
I apologise for raising a point which I made on Second Reading, but I am particularly concerned about the children in families subject to the wage-stop. I think that it is true that most of those families have a large number of children. Most employees or ex-employees subject to the wage stop—perhaps it is natural with poverty-ridden families—have a large number of children, and it is


particularly the children who will suffer great hardship. During Questions yesterday I asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what research was being carried out to ascertain the connection betwen pupils coming from households suffering a good deal of poverty and their progress in school, and I was informed that some research was being undertaken. There is no denying that the children in these families will be penalised if we continue this very obnoxious practice.
That is why the Child Poverty Action Group, which was recently formed under the chairmanship of Professor Peter Townsend, has made the question of the wage-stop a very important point in its campaign. Just before last Christmas the group sent a deputation to the Prime Minister, and one of the essential points made then was that when this Bill came before the House the wage-stop practice should be discontinued. If it is argued today that it is impossible to delete the provision dealing with the wage-stop, I support the suggestion just made that each case should be subject to review.
The New Society this week makes the point that if it is impossible for the wage-stop to be completely deleted, each case should be looked at on its own merits. Can we have a promise from the Minister that this will be done? We ought not just to say that the practice cannot be stopped and nothing more can be done about it, but each case should be looked at to ascertain whether any exceptional treatment can be given to enable the people to receive more money than they do now.
I said that it was not my intention to speak, but I felt it right and proper to support the remarks which had been made. I conclude with two points. First, we are right to raise this point because once the Bill becomes an Act it will be argued that the points were dealt with in the debates on the Bill, and so it will be difficult to raise the subject except at Question Time. This is all the more reason why we should have an adequate answer from the Minister today.
My second point may be considered unnecessary, but I am sure that I am entitled to make it. As long as there are

people subjected to the wage-stop, our consciences as Members of Parliament cannot be very clear. I hope that I shall not be accused of preaching, but I believe that we have a duty and obligation to try to remove the worst forms of poverty from our fellow citizens, and one of the best ways to do this would be to remove the wage-stop.

Mr. Frank Hooley: I speak with considerable diffidence because I am no expert on social security, but I am fortified in supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) by my knowledge that people far more expert than I am have condemned the wage-stop principle. In a very brief term of service on a tribunal dealing with appeals I realised at first hand exactly how the principle worked and was astounded and horrified. I was so startled that I challenged the officer as to whether he was operating the provision correctly and was assured that it was the law.
I regard the Clause as disfiguring an otherwise excellent piece of legislation. I suggest that the concept of normal earnings in these cases begs the whole question. These are precisely the people who have no normal earnings in the recognised sense. Therefore, to apply to them an arbitrary limit of income is both unjust and illogical. I recall the case of a metallurgical worker who was unable to follow his profession through sickness and obliged to apply for National Assistance.
The National Assistance Board ruled not that his normal profession was that of a skilled metallurgical worker but that in his present condition he could be only a light labourer and, therefore, that his normal earnings should be regarded as at the level of what was locally supposed to be the wages of a light labourer. I thought that this was an iniquitous arrangement, and still think so. In this context, the whole idea of normal earnings seems inappropriate and unfair.
I am very sorry that the wage-stop principle has been incorporated in the Bill, and I hope very much that some technical means will be found of removing it from our social security system at the earliest possible date.

Miss Pike: I do not want to go over the arguments which we have already


Put forward, but I should like to say fiat I and my hon. Friends associate ourselves with the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) and ether hon. Members opposite. I hope fiat the Minister will be as sympathetic as she can be. We wish that she could go a good deal further. We have had certain advice from her which has disappointed us, but we hope that she will be as sympathetic as possible.

Mr. Winnick: I do not want to engage unnecessarily in party polemics, but would riot the hon. Lady agree that while the Conservative Government were in office no move at all was made to remove the wage-stop principle?

Miss Pike: Of course I agree, but as we have said all through, on this Bill we have a wonderful new opportunity. The fact that things were not done in the past for reasons which we all accept is no reason why we should not now recognise the situation and use our resources to meet the priorities properly. The Opposition want help given where the need is greatest. That is why we hope that the right hon. Lady will be as sym Pathetic as she can in this regard.

Miss Herbison: I am very glad that we have had this debate and that a number of hon. Members have taken part in it. It is of the greatest importance that the nation itself should realise how great an area of poverty we have at present.
My hon. Friend's Amendment would limit to the first six months the period to which the wage-stop could be applied. It is not just a matter of looking at cases after six months—I will deal with the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mr. Lena Jeger) and other hon. Members in a moment—but is more a matter of the Amendment in effect limiting the application of the wage-stop to the first six months. After that period the wage-stop would be withdrawn and those concerned would receive the full amount even if that made them better off than when they were in work. That is an important point to remember.
On Second Reading the Parliamentary Secretary made what I consider was a most valid point. He said that the wage-stop of itself does not cause hardship

since it simply continues a man's income at much the same level as when he was at work.
It has been suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) today that we should be considering whether the solution is higher wages. We have not time to wait until all the negotiations can take place between individual trade unions and employers on these matters, and the Government have to move much more quickly than that. I can give him the guarantee that that is not the solution to which we are looking, though there are a great many low-wage earners who deserve higher wages than they get at present.
1.30 p.m.
It is for that reason and the ones so clearly given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary that I cannot accept the argument that, after the receipt of non-contributory benefit for six months, the wage-stop should not be implemented.
The Committee was informed by my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South that in December, 1965, 15,000 families were affected by the wage-stop. She gave details of the amount that they were being denied, money which they could have had if the wage-stop had not been operating at that time. There are some families who are denied an even greater amount of money than that which my hon. Friend announced.
In the Second Reading debate, I said that those 15,000 families—and the number may be greater now—represent merely the tip of the iceberg. We are concerned not only about those 15,000 families, but the other 200,000 or 300,000 families where the fathers are in full-time work with incomes below the National Assistance Board level. The Government are deeply concerned about the position of such families, particularly the children, whether the breadwinners are in or out of work.
During the course of the proceedings on the Bill, and on other occasions, I have stressed that concern. With the aid of the survey which will begin next week, the field work of which will be finished in a fortnight, and as a result of the thought which we have been giving to the matter ever since we came to power, we are determined to find a solution.
Apart from the provisions of the Bill, which are good for some of the community, the biggest problem in social security facing the nation at present is that of the families whom the Amendment covers. I have given reasons why it is impossible for us to accept the Amendment. The only way of dealing with the problem is by a better form of family endowment, whether a man is in or out of work.
I come now to my hon. Friend's second Amendment, which would prevent the Commission from applying the wage-stop in any case other than that of the unemployed man who is required to register for employment under Clause 11 as a condition for receiving the supplementary allowance. It applies to one particular type of case, which is the man who is temporarily sick. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance, first of all, that this is not new to the Bill. It has always been the practice of the National Assistance Board. What we have done is to put into statutory form what is an existing practice.
The wage-stop cannot be applied to anyone who is considered to be out of the employment field and who would not be required to register for employment. It does not apply to the long-term sick or the chronic sick, and it is important that it should not. It does not apply, for example, to widows or other women who have the care of children. It applies to this limited category of people who would be asked to register for employment if they were temporarily sick. For those reasons, we cannot accept that Amendment.
I want to turn now to the other points which have been made. Both my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras spoke about the relevance of normal earnings, which is decided by the National Assistance Board at present and will be decided by the Commission in the future. When a man first seeks National Assistance at present or, later, non-contributory benefit, does the Board decide that it has to take into account the amount of money that the man could be expected to earn, and that at no time in the future would there be a change? Both hon. Members have

asked that there should be periodic reviews. My hon. Friend suggested a review of individual cases every six months.
I have quite a number of wage-stop cases in my own constituency, and I know of cases in North-East England. Reference has also been made to cases in Cornwall. I have quite a lot of experience of it. I could give quite a number of cases similar to that mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Heeley. There was the case of a miner earning good wages who had a coronary thrombosis, and who is now fit only for light work. However, his wages as a miner are not taken into account. Instead, account is taken of the wages that he would earn on light work.
I can assure the Committee that the Board at the present time, and I am sure that the Commission will continue this in the future, will look at the relevance of normal earnings and find what is the movement of earnings in the area where a man is living. It is of the greatest importance that that should be done.
I come to the point about the change of circumstances. It may be that the wife or other member of the family of a man on the wage-stop becomes ill. My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras has asked if such changed circumstances will be examined and if the Commission's discretionary powers will be used. I am confident that the Commission will do this.
Finally, may I say that no tampering with the wage-stop would get to the root of the problem. I am convinced that the only solution is a form of family endowment. The more that is spoken about in the country, the better I shall be pleased.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: In view of the Minister's assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Braine: I beg to move Amendment No. 12, in page 23, line 3, at end insert:
and of any other persons who as a result of absence of faculty require constant attendance".

The Chairman: I suggest that with this Amendment we take Amendment No. 19, in page 26, line 26, at end insert:
including moneys received from any source whatsoever by a person who as a result of


absence of faculty requires constant attendance".

Mr. Braine: We come now to one cf the most important issues raised by the Bill. The Amendment would have the effect of putting all those who require constant attendance as a result of a disability on the same basis as blind persons who, under the Bill, receive a special scale of allowances as well as the 9s addition if they have been in receipt of an allowance for at least two years or are over pensionable age.
None of us would wish to underestimate the terrible handicaps and difficulties stemming from the loss of sight, and all of us are glad that this Bill makes suitable provision for the blind. In the light of what we now know about the effect of other forms of disablement, I regret, as I think all hon. Members must regret, that the opportunity has not been taken to bring similar help to all who suffer such grievous impairment of functions that they need constant attendance.
There are historic reasons for the preference given to the blind. Unlike a good many forms of disability, blindness is immediately obvious, and that is why it has always excited compassion. I remember as a child being deeply impressed, almost terrified, by the words of Milton. I do not think that anyone afflicted by a physical disability has ever described it in such a despairing and moving fashion:
Oh dark, dark, dark, amid the blaze of noon,
Irrecoverably dark, total eclipse
Without all hope of day;
It has always seemed that those words express most vividly the way in which normally sighted people feel about the loss of sight. I should say in passing how astonishing, inspiring and humbling it is to see how blind persons overcome their disabilities and enjoy a happy and fruitful family life. It is not surprising that against this background that sympathy was aroused and much pioneer work done for the blind long before the idea of a Welfare Slate was accepted.
Until the National Assistance Act, 1948, the blind were the only handicapped adults for whose social care there was statutory provision. It was not until 1951 that local authorities were authorised to produce schemes to help other classes of handi-

capped persons. Whatever the reasons for this difference of approach to the disabled, I am going to suggest to the Committee that it cannot be defended any longer. I recognise that one cannot equate forms of disability. To those with normal sight blindness is terrible, but is not total deafness as isolating, if not more so? How crippling is the sudden loss of a limb, but is not the slow but relentless advance of multiple sclerosis still more terrifying? How can one compare the person, deaf or blind from birth, with one who has enjoyed a normal life before being gravely disabled by disease or injury?
The point was put very clearly by Penelope Hall in her book which has become a classic, "The Social Services of Modern England". In this she quotes a hospital almoner as saying:
There are no such people as the handicapped, there are handicapped individuals, all of them different, each with his own psychological and social problem to meet as well as his own particular physical disability to overcome.
What matters in each case is not the source of the disability but its extent.
We all welcome the scale provision that the Bill makes for the blind, but we know that there are degrees of incapacity due to blindness and that the definition of blindness includes not only those who are totally incapacitated but those who are partially sighted. We know that there is quite a large number of blind persons, otherwise fit, who are better equipped to cope with life and its problems than sufferers from the advanced stages of diseases such as epilepsy, bronchitis, muscular dystrophy, sclerosis, paralysis or the multiple handicaps, who are utterly and completely dependent upon others for their simplest needs.
1.45 p.m.
How many seriously disabled persons are there? The trouble is no one really knows. Registration with the local authority is voluntary and the advantages of being on the register, as I said earlier, are not at all obvious. The number registered in England and Wales last year was only 176,000, and this is only a small percentage of the total. Let me take the situation in my own county, because this is something about which I know. I am proud to say that Essex


enjoys the reputation of being one of the finest welfare authorities in the land. There are about 3,600 persons permanently and substantially handicapped—I am using the words of the Act now registered with the authority as being in need of help. Most are living in their own homes.
The county welfare officer tells me that probably 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. of them are so badly disabled as to need constant attendance. Certainly a great many of them are vastly more disabled than some of the blind who are entitled to the enhanced rates. Where is the equity and social justice in this? Surely it is time that we did something about this? Surely we ought to recommend, here and now, that it is people and their needs in contemporary society, not in theory, not precedent, that should determine the shape of the social services.
It is true that a good many of our disabled citizens, especially war disabled, are better treated in Britain than almost anywhere else. Broadly speaking this is true, especially so in the case of war disabled. But the levels of allowance that we provide, unlike those in certain countries, are determined by the source of the disability rather than by the extent to which it causes loss of faculty, and so it is that the war disabled, by general consent, obtain preference over the industrially disabled and men injured at work get preference over those injured at home.
So it is that only the war disabled and industrially disabled needing constant attendance get the £2 15s. a week allowance. Why should there not be a realistic allowance for all who are so gravely disabled that they require constant attendance?
Consider the case of the Yorkshire wife mentioned in a moving article, which hon. Members must have read, in last Friday's Daily Mail. She had the incurable and paralysing disease, multiple sclerosis, for 17 years. The article says:
At first her husband went on National Assistance to look after her. They couldn't manage so he went back to work and she went reluctantly into hospital. She was breaking her heart. Her husband brought her home. But he could not afford the £3 a week home help, so she went hack into hospital.
Now, at the age of 45, with a lively mind, she is in a geriatric ward. Her nearest neighbour is 99 years old.

The article goes on to say that she no longer reads so that her only contact with life is conversation, and she gets that once a day for an hour when her husband visits her. He is quoted as saying:
She is praying to die. She cries nearly every night that she has no reason to live. She says if she could come back home to me she could go on living.
And the article says:
Imagine what a disability income could do for her.
Consider another case, that of the truly remarkable woman we were privileged to meet earlier this week through the good offices of my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. John Astor), who takes a great practical interest in the seriously disabled. I refer to Mrs. Page, a journalist, who works under the name of Ann Armstrong. She is a mother of two young children and has been suffering from respiratory polio for 12 years and is permanently anchored to a respiratory machine. The only movement she has is in her head and toes, with which she manipulates a dictating machine. I understand that she was in hospital for two years and that when she came out she could not, and nine years later she still cannot, be left alone in her home. I understand that she has about 15 hours help a week, some home help and some which she employs. It costs her about £5 a week and is nowhere near enough. Her husband takes over the minute he gets home. The disability income which I would propose would enable her to employ a regular amount of help, and in the article she is quoted as saying:
Financially it is a horrible struggle. It will always be a struggle. If we had extra money and extra help my husband might be able to get some sleep at night.
Lastly, I take an example from my own part of South-East Essex. It is of a man in his middle 40's who is living with his widowed mother whose income is only slightly above National Assistance standards. He has spondylitis. His condition has deteriorated and he can be moved only in a wheel chair. His aged mother finds it increasingly difficult to push him about. A higher scale would enable them to pay children to run errands or to pay a person to accompany him on little outings in the town.


Otherwise, he is almost permanently confined at home.
I have quoted these cases because it is impossible to measure the suffering and strain caused by a system which either keeps people permanently in hospital, or, if they are at home, makes it difficult for their families to make ends meet and cope with the financial burden. I think that the case for a constant attendance allowance on the grounds of social justice alone is unanswerable.
However, humanitarian considerations aside, I am convinced that such an allowance would save money. For one thing, we know from regional hospital board studies that one in three of the chronic sick could leave hospital if someone was at home to look after them. For another, we can see for ourselves in the Ministry of Health hospital costing returns that the net cost of keeping a long-stay or chronic patient in hospital ranges from £15 9s. 5d. a week to more than £22 a week, dependent, of course, on the type of hospital. I stress that this is the net cost which excludes all elements of capital expenditure. In these circumstances, it begins to make economic as well as social sense to provide a reasonable allowance for all these disabled persons who medically could be allowed home—and that does not apply to all of them—when their families are willing and suitable help can be secured.
In the past it has always been suggested that the main difficulty about extending the special allowance for the blind to other classes of handicapped persons has been the problem of deciding who should benefit. The Committee will observe that the Amendment does not specify types of disability. I am sure that to list types of disabling diseases would be quite wrong. We are anxious to focus attention on the fact that it is the degree of impairment and not its source which should govern our thinking and command our priorities, and I see no reason why the well-tried system of the tribunals which assesses the extent of the disabilities of war pensioners should not be extended to other handicapped persons who need constant attendance.
So far, I have been arguing the case for a constant attendance allowance for the seriously disabled to put them on a par with the blind. The second Amend-

ment seeks to encourage the provision of constant attendance allowance from other sources. If it were accepted, the Amendment would impose no great financial burden on the community at large, but it would provide a boon to the unfortunate people whom it is designed to help.
The effect would be that a person who was so seriously disabled that he required constant attendance and who had a trust income of up to £2 a week, when obviously the capital could not be touched, which is modest enough—very much so in these days—or from, say, an annuity, a friendly society, or from trade union sick pay, or some charitable organisation, would have that sum totally disregarded in an assessment of his entitlement to benefit.
This proposal would considerably help in those cases where money is specifically provided for constant attendance either by a charity, or by other members of the family. We all know—and some of us have had experience of this within our own family circles—of married children of disabled parents who are not able wholly to look after the mother or father all the time but who are willing to contribute something towards the cost of constant attendance. I am sure that this proposal would encourage help of that kind.
It is arguable that as the cost of constant attendance is bound to rise—it is rising all the time—there may be a strong case for an even larger disregard, but our purpose in putting forward this proposal is to ensure that the principle underlying it is discussed and accepted.
I know that the National Assistance Board is particularly concerned with cases of this kind. There is one case in South-East Essex which perhaps I ought to mention. A widow in her late fifties who is almost immoveable because of rheumatoid arthritis—she cannot move out at all—prefers to go on living in her own home and has a married daughter who lives quite near and who comes in whenever possible. A home help is available for only a short time each week. This lady has a small income from a trust fund left by her father.
At present there is no statutory disregard and, as the Bill is drafted, there is no provision for a disregard. In line with the generally flexible and humane attitude which it has taken down the


years, the Board has disregarded 15s. of that trust income under its discretionary powers. The full 40s. disregard which I suggest would enable her to pay for extra attention and comforts in the long periods when she is left on her own. Now that the Board has come under the new Ministry, surely it is right that the general discretionary power which the Board has used under Regulation 3 of the 1948 Regulations should be replaced by a specific provision for that disregard in the Schedule.
Here are two proposals designed to bring much-needed relief to people whose sufferings in many instances are such as to move the stoniest heart to compassion. I hope that what I have said will command the right hon. Lady's sympathy. I know that she cares very deeply about these matters and I hope that she will be able to accept both Amendments.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I share the anxieties of the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), to whom we are all indebted for the way in which he has brought them before the Committee. There is an increasing awareness among hon. Members about many of these cases and great credit for that awareness should go to the Disablement Income Group and similar organisations. My anxiety arises mainly because at least some of the cases which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned would not be covered by the Amendments, because, in spite of my protests, the Committee has already passed Clause 4, which excludes from benefit any person in full-time employment, or any person aggregated with him or her. We would, therefore, have to take some more drastic step to help many disabled people, especially disabled wives.
If my right hon. Friend is not able to help within the confines of the Bill, I hope that, in consultation with the Minister of Health, she will realise the urgent anxieties of all hon. Members, which I know she shares and which are also felt in the country. I do not want to delay the Committee, but in a few words I want to spell out the realities of the kind of life which we are discussing. A young mother is disabled by poliomyelitis from the neck downwards. She has two small children and

is living at home. She wrote in The Guardian that her day is like this:
Before my husband leaves for work each morning he does the chores of firefighting, shoecleaning, etc., and then washes me, cleans my teeth and nose, brushes my hair, gives me a bedpan, changes me if I have a period, prepares breakfast for us all, gives the children theirs, has his own, and feeds me. However clever you are with time-and-motion study these fiddling jobs take a couple of hours when there is only one pair of hands to do them. We need at least an hour's help at this end of the day to cope with breakfast and feeding me—for six days a week. For a considered minimum of five shillings an hour this would cost 30s. Another hour or two at the children's bathtime and bedtime at the same rate would cost between 30s. and £3.
2.0 p.m.
That is the kind of sum that could greatly ameliorate the position of people in this situation and could make such a difference to the intolerable burden put on a husband. My dread in a case like this is of what would happen if the husband cracks up. He is a hero. Only his devotion enables this woman to be at home. Apart from the pleasure which it gives her family to have her at home, this saves the Health Service between £40 and £50 a week.
I shall not press my hon. Friend unfairly, but we must find an answer for these people. We cannot go on saying that we can find £40 to £50 a week to put them in hospital and take their children into care, but will not give a woman like this £2 or £3 a week to alleviate the heavy burden in the home.
I cannot see an answer to the question within the terms of the Amendment, but I hope that it will be realised that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, and a growing body of public opinion outside the House of Commons, will not tolerate for much longer what seems to be a gross injustice to people who are in need of help, and not only of our sympathy.

Mr. Pardoe: I agree with the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger). Although I am entirely in sympathy with the aims of the Amendment, it will not deal with many of the problems which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine). I cannot suport it because it will not solve so many of the problems which are primarily concerned with the housewife,


the mother who is sick. Nearly all the cases which my hon. Friend mentioned were in this category.
Men also become ill and are disabled for a long period, but they have usually been wage or salary earners, and, therefore, they are entitled under National Insurance to sickness, injury, or disability benefit. If a housewife becomes ill, or is disabled in any way, the family suffers, and very heavy family costs are involved.
This problem should be overcome not by means of the Amendment, but by introducing a married woman's sickness benefit. I shall on another occasion—because this is not the place or time to do so—press this upon the right hon. Lady. On a large number of occasions in this debate, the right hon. Lady has had to say, "We cannot do this now, but we shall do it".
I hope that this benefit for married women will be introduced and I shall press for all these things to be done. When can we expect the great Bill which is to usher in the Paradise which we all want? Will it be this year, next year or when?

Miss Herbison: I shall, first, take up the last point which was made by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe). He asks when the Government's great new Bill will be ushered in. He has not been following what has been happening. When we were returned to Government in October, 1964, we started the general review, and we have not been waiting to usher in a new Bill. As we have completed each part of the review we have brought legislation before the House to give effect to the decisions which we have made.
This seems to me to be a much better way than waiting until everything was completed. In the case of the new superannuation scheme which will take the place of the present rather discredited graduated scheme, we have given indications in another debate of what will be the nature of the timetable for it.
The hon. Member for Cornwall, North and my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) are quite right. Most of the cases which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), who so reasonably and movingly

moved the Amendment, would not be affected by the two Amendments.
For example, neither Amendment would help Mrs. Anne Page in any way because her husband is in full-time employment, so that they are not receiving non-contributory benefits. The Bill applies only to those who will be receiving non-contributory benefits. The cases given as examples would not be helped by the Amendment.
However, I am glad that they have been raised today, and raised in the way in which they have been by both the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend. I am certain that these matters are giving great concern and we are giving the most serious consideration to this in our general review.
My right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio, in a recent speech outside the House of Commons, said that National Insurance, to a very great extent, was really about women. There is no doubt about it in this case. It does not follow that those who are not covered by the provisions of the Bill are being neglected. The whole future of superannuation and the future for women in every kind of circumstance is being reviewed. In the review we are giving the greatest consideration to the kind of cases that were brought before us today.
I am grateful to the Committee for the speed with which we are dealing with the Amendments and I shall deal with them as quickly as possible. The first to be moved would give to those who, according to the Amendment, require constant attendance the same scale rate as is given for the blind. The blind are the only group of people under the noncontributory benefit scheme who will get this special additional payment.
The hon. Member is quite right. This is a preference that has existed for a long time in this country. It was first given in the blind domiciliary assistance which was paid by the Public Assistance authorities. It was carried on into the National Assistance Scheme in 1948. I think that there are sound reasons for the exception, and for the ability to be able to give a special rate to the one class.
The Committee should know these reasons. The special needs of blindness do not vary much individually. There


are needs common to blind people and they can be easily recognised, just as the hon. Member said, and these needs can best be provided for by means of a special rate common to all blind people; it is easy to provide for this special case because the needs are easily recognisable.
To extend this provision to other classes entitled to non-contributory benefit, as the Amendment would do, would immediately lead to difficulties. The hon. Member touched on these, but rather airily swept them aside; but in practice the country would, I think, come to feel the drawing of distinctions between the cases to be individious, and it would, indeed, very likely cause much discontent. Indeed, I would say it would be virtually impossible to draw the dividing line.
All of us in the Committee have knowledge of the difficulties which can arise in a home. Take the old person who suffers from incontinence. That old person needs care and attention, but not necessarily constant attendance as it is defined in the Acts to which the hon. Member made reference. Take someone at home suffering from mental disorder or perhaps someone with what might be termed incomplete paralysis; these people need care and attention, but not necessarily constant attendance as it is defined in those other Acts.
I want to make it clear that the Government are concerned about all these people, those whom we can say need constant attendance—and by that I do mean constant attendance—and also those who really do need quite a lot of devoted care and attention. We really do want to ensure—and I think the Bill does it—that the special needs of all those people are met. First of all, the long-term cases will receive a special addition of 9s. a week, and where the person does not qualify for the addition the Commission's discretionary powers will be used. Then where there are special expenses—and in the kind of cases I have spoken about there certainly will be special expenses in providing constant attendance—I do assure the Committee that the Commission has ample discretionary powers to ensure that they are met.
I am sure it was the hon. Member's desire, and the desire of the whole Com-

mittee, to ensure that special expenses such as those of constant attendance should be met, but I am also concerned with what may be termed less than constant attendance for those receiving noncontributory benefit, and from what I have said I think I have shown that the Amendment is really superfluous.
I want to come to the second Amendment. Much of what I have said about the hon. Member's first Amendment applies to his second. I have to tell him that I am advised that the proposed disregard would apply to the retirement pension, or to any of the other main National Insurance benefits, as well as to charitable payments and voluntary payments. That is what I am advised, and I am quite certain from my legal advisers that this is quite definitely the case. Since this is so, and as the Amendment would override the express provision in paragraph 25 that retirement pension and the main National Insurance benefits are to be taken fully into account, and I think the hon. Member would want them to be taken fully into account, the Government must regard this extension of disregards as quite unacceptable. We have given our reasons for this previously.
2.15 p.m.
The Amendment proposes a complete departure from the general principle on which disregards are based. That principle is that disregards are determined by reference to the kind of resources, not by reference to the circumstances of the individual claimant. Again I stress that it would be virtually impossible to draw a dividing line between one case and another for the reasons I gave when dealing with the first Amendment. Again, I would stress that the disregards which are allowed under the Bill are so much more generous than the present disregards we have in National Assistance.
It seems to me that the best way of dealing with the real difficulties which the hon. Member and other hon Members have outlined is to use the method which is adopted by the Bill. Where a particular category of persons needs higher income this ought to be reflected in the level of requirements as calculated in Part II of the Schedule.
That is the first point, but over and above this the Commission has ample discretionary powers to make additions


for special needs. If a person requires domestic help of a non-medical kind for which payment has to be made the corn-mission will take this into account in assessing the needs. That is a very important point when we think of the help which is needed in those homes, where, in some cases, it is not the person who needs such help who requires the payment but a relative, very often the daughter, who has given up her work to look after a frail or ailing parent.
It is not money which is needed to be given to the old person but an allowance in her own right to the daughter. I think that in these cases, that is much the better way of doing it. Often the old person will have no income at all to disregard. It does seem to me that where a daughter or other relative gives up work to go home and care for an ailing parent the money ought to be paid to that person in that person's own right.
I hope that from what I have said—there is much more I could have said, but we have other important Amendments still to come—I have made it clear that these Amendments would not cover many of the cases which the hon. Member has in mind; that it is easier to deal with the blind as a separate category; that it would be impossible to deal with the others in the same way; that there are ample provisions in the discretionary powers which the commission will have.
I am quite certain that the debate can do nothing but good, because I am certain that the members of the commission will read the debate and realise what are the desires of the Members of this Committee. If the hon. Member is willing to withdraw his Amendment I think that it will be a good thing. If not, we must reject it.

Mr. Maurice Macmillan: I cannot, of course, speak for my hon. Friend, but for some of us on this side of the Committee I do not think that the right hon. Lady's very carefully argued explanation gives us really sufficient grounds for not pressing the two Amendments. First of all, she said that this problem was not being neglected by the Government; it was one of the many things for which in the future they were having serious consideration, and which

were, in the meantime, dealt with reasonably adequately by the discretionary powers of the Supplementary Benefits Commission.
We deeply regret that, in extending the idea and the principle that payments made under this Bill should be made as of right to the recipients cannot be extended to this group of persons as well as to others and that this group and this group alone must depend on the discretionary powers of the Commission.
The right hon. Lady referred to the difficulties of identifying those who would qualify for this special treatment as being persons who were disabled and in need of constant attendance. It would be the task of the Supplementary Benefits Commission to identify these people and to help them, which the right hon. Lady said would be too complicated. But I see no greater difficulty in drawing the line now than in drawing it at some distant date in the future, when the new Measures which the Government contemplate will have been brought into law.
Nor do I see, if I am in order in referring to it, any greater difficulty for the Commission in drawing the line on these two Amendments than on Clause 6 of the Selective Employment Payments Bill, under which there seems to be a similar problem in deciding whether the special refunds for certain households shall or shall not be paid, since that too includes a definition of a person in need of such assistance, by reason of being infirm, sick or otherwise incapacitated.
It seems that a line is being drawn there in exactly the same way as it would have to be drawn by the Commission if the Amendments were accepted. A good deal was made of the point that the Amendments did not cover most of the cases concerned. Of course they do not, because this Bill deals only with those who have non-contributory pensions and benefits and therefore can cover only people who are so qualified. But the Amendments are part of a wider complex of measures which will be and have been put forward to the Bill as Amendments and new Clauses, some of which have been rejected and none of which, alas, has yet been accepted by the Government.
They are part, too, of a complex which we shall continue to put forward as


Amendments and new Clauses in the Finance Bill. I hope that I am not being unduly optimistic in reading into one of the right hon. Lady's remarks some small hope that, on the Finance Bill at least, we can be a little more optimistic than we can on this Bill.
There are obviously many ways in which the State can help. Some, like tax allowances and special pensions, are without the scope of the Bill and some, like the two Amendments, are within the scope. They have several points in common, one of which is that they would undoubtedly cost the country more. I do not think that this is or should be an over-riding factor nor do I believe that the right hon. Lady thinks that. We are dealing now with people who are least able to protect themselves.
They have one other point in common. They recognise the principle that we must now get away from any question of allowance or benefit being dependent upon the existence of special diseases or types of disability or source of disability and go back entirely to the extent of the disability and its effect on the individual. As was said earlier, there is no such thing as a class of disabled people: there are only disabled individuals. I wish that we could persuade the right hon. Lady to extend this principle to disregards as well as to assessment of disk ability, which would thus include the two Amendments.
As she rightly said, this would be a new principle in Part III of Schedule 2, the provisions which define disregards by the source of the income. This is intended to carry the principle of the previous Amendment from Part II into Part III and include any income for this class of person—disabled people only. Until this Bill, tubercular people had special treatment and the right hon. Lady perhaps originally intended to do something on the lines of our two Amendments. That is why the Bill took away the special treatment from tubercular people. The right hon. Lady recognised that we should get away from the consideration of special diseases and back to the idea of the extent of the disability, no matter what the cause.
The right hon. Lady has explained why she was unable to accept our Amendments. I do not think that this side of the Committee found that very convincing. It is more likely that it is once more a matter of course and that, as usual, the Treasury have stopped her from going as far as she would have liked. We must press her to reconsider the matter. These Amendments should be in the Bill.
I am aware that a long time has passed since we first considered this kind of problem and since the right hon. Lady and her friends started on their plan for social benefits and improving the whole of our social security system. Meanwhile, the economic situation has greatly deteriorated. However, I do not think that the Minister would accept for a moment that these are the right people on whom to economise, or that this is the right way to try to meet the problem of rising Government expenditure—by excluding the disabled from increased benefits and a better opportunity to provide for themselves by proper disregards.
It is no good saying that this is administratively complicated. The administrative complications, as I have shown, will be just as great on the Selective Employment Tax special refunds for certain households. Claims have been made and administrative difficulties have been overcome. We must urge her to take up the cudgels once more. We are not asking for very much from a party which has promised so much.
I must remind the right hon. Lady again of her declaration that the Labour Government will create a fair and just scheme for everyone now, not in the 21st century. For everyone. But for some, I fear, the Government are now saying—unless the right hon. Lady accepts our Amendment—in the words of Amiens, in "As You Like It":
Freeze, freeze, thou bitter sky,
Thou dost not bite so nigh.
As benefits forgot:
Let the right hon. Lady accept this principle now and in the future and provide a little more of what she and her right hon. and hon. Friends promised on many occasions.

Question put, That those words be there inserted:—

Mr. Philip Holland: I beg to move Amendment No. 13, in page 23, line 17, at the end to insert:
(2) Additional requirements of persons eligible for supplementary pension, being men aged 75 or over, or women aged 70 or over 14s. 0d.
As this is the first occasion for me on the Front Bench, perhaps I may preface my remarks with a brief comment on the

The Committee divided: Ayes 41, Noes 118.

Division No. 26.]
AYES
[2.30 p.m.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Grieve, Percy
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Bell, Ronald
Higgins, Terence L.
Roots, William


Blaker, Peter
Hobson, Rt. Hn, Sir John
Scott, Nicholas


Bloyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin
Sinclair, Sir George


Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward
Holland, Philip
Smith, John


Braine, Bernard
Hordern, Peter
Teeling, Sir William


Costain, A. P.
Howoll, David (Guildford)
Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John


Dance, James
Hunt, John
Vickers, Dame Joan


Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)
Iremonger, T. L.
Ward, Dame Irene


Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)
Longden, Gilbert
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)


Eyre, Reginald
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Worsley, Marcus


Foster, Sir John
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)



Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Glover, Sir Douglas
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Mr. Francis Pym and


Grant, Anthony
Pink, R. Bonner
Mr. Brian Batsford.




NOES


Albu, Austen
Hazell, Bert
Park, Trevor


Armstrong, Ernest
Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Pavitt, Laurence


Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)
Hilton, W. S.
Pentland, Norman


Barnes, Michael
Hooley, Frank
Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)


Beaney, Alan
Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)
Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Howie, W.
Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.


Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Price, William (Rugby)


Bishop, E. S.
Janner, Sir Barnett
Purley, Cmdr. Harry


Booth, Albert
Jeger, George (Goole)
Redhead, Edward


Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Reynolds, G. W.


Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)
Johnson, James (K'sten-on-Hull, W.)
Richard, Ivor


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Judd, Frank
Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)


Chapman, Donald
Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)
Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Kerr, Dr. David (W'werth, Central)
Rodgers, William (Stockton)


Crawshaw, Richard
Kerr, Russell (Feltham)
Roebuck, Roy


Dalyell, Tam
Leadbitter, Ted
Rogers, George


Darling, R t. Hn. George
Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie
Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Lee, John (Reading)
Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)


Davies, Robert (Cambridge)
Lestor, Miss Joan
Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)


Delargy, Hugh
Luard, Evan
Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.


Diamond, Rt. Hn. John
Lubbock, Eric
Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)


Dickens, James
Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson
Silkin, John (Deptford)


Dunnett, Jack
MacDermot, Niall
Slater, Joseph


Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)
Macdonald, A. H.
Snow, Julian


Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)
Mackie, John
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
Maclennan, Robert
Taverne, Dick


Ennals, David
MacPherson, Malcolm
Tuck, Raphael


Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)
Marquand, David
Wallace, George


Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)
Meflish, Robert
Watkins, David (Consett)


Faulds, Andrew
Mendelson, J. J.
Wellbeloved, James


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Mikardo, Ian
Whitaker, Ben


Floud, Bernard
Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
White, Mrs. Eirene


Foley, Maurice
Motley, William
Whitlock, William


Fowler, Gerry
Murray, Albert
Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Newens, Stan
WinnIck, David


Freeson, Reginald
Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.)
Zilliacus, K.


Gardner, A. J.
Norwood, Christopher



Gray, Dr. Hugh
Orbach, Maurice
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gregory, Arnold
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Mr. George Lawson and


Hart, Mrs. Judith
Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Mr. Charles Morris.


Hattersley, Roy
Pardoe, J.

situation in which I find myself. There ought to be a moral somewhere to be drawn from the fact that owing to the construction of the Chamber it is necessary to descend from a more exalted seat on the back benches to take one's place on the Front Bench. Certainly, to fall back from the Front Bench one has literally to slip up—and, this is what I should like to think the Minister and the Department have done in framing this


part of Schedule 2, although I must confess that all the signs are that the proposal that the standard 9s. supplement should go to all needy pensioners of whatever age is probably the product of a deliberate act of policy.

The purpose of the Amendment is to recognise the state of affairs which exists, to establish a principle and to set a most desirable precedent. It recognises that the longer retirement lasts, so the need for more financial assistance grows. On retirement a pensioner has a certain stock of clothing, but as the years go by, the clothing wears out and the need for replacement and repairs as well as the need for replacement of household goods increases.

As we grow older we have a greater need of warmth and of the little extra comforts which can mean so much when the body becomes more susceptible to cold, aches and pains. What is an adequate benefit at the age of retirement often ceases to be an adequate benefit some years later, after years of retirement on a small fixed income. This situation exists and we can do nothing to change the basic fact that people in retirement do not have a rising income during that time to allow them to fight the deterioration in their standard of life.

The aim of the Amendment is to alleviate a little of the growing hardship during retirement by giving a modest 5s. a week increase to people after they have been in retirement for 10 years. This cannot solve the problem, but it can help, and this is the sort of practical help which we know from our constituency experience would be greatly appreciated by those members of the community who are least able to take care of and speak up for themselves.

Poverty at any age is tough. Poverty in old age is worst of all. In later years the will and ability to fight back becomes weakened and one becomes less resilient to the slings and arrows which life presents to us all. Acceptance of the Amendment would be acknowledgement of the principle of giving more help where the need is greatest without the further additional qualifying test of means. In other words, selection for the additional benefit of 5s. would be by age category rather than by an additional test of means.

The idea of giving more help to these people is one which I and a number of my hon. Friends have been pressing for a number of years. I was involved in this between 1962 and 1964 from the benches opposite. On Second Readings on 28th January, 1963, and 28th January, 1964, I spoke on this subject. I had an article published pressing this principle in the Daily Telegraph on 16th November, 1962. I spoke at my party's annual conference in 1963 on this issue. My hon. Friends have equally been putting on pressure to get this principle accepted.

Our urgings were heard. My party accepted this as a part of its policy manifestos in 1964 and 1966, and it appeared in our policy documents. [Interruption.] I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that had we got back to power this would have been implemented by now. From a personal or party point of view, there is no inconsistency among my hon. Friends and I in urging the Government to accept this principle.

Dame Irene Ward: Would my hon. Friend inform hon. Gentlemen opposite that this principle was embodied in the Service pension arrangements in the last Pensions (Increase) Act to be introduced by the Conservative Government, and that there is no need for hon. Gentlemen opposite to laugh?

Mr. Holland: That is perfectly true, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite have noted my hon. Friend's remarks.
The proposal in the Amendment is extremely modest. I hope that it will commend itself to the Minister on the ground of moderate cost for maximum effect as well as on humanitarian grounds. In terms of value for money this is an outstanding bargain offer. There are at present 159,000 men over the age of 75 and 695,000 women over 70 in receipt of National Assistance supplementary benefit, making a total of 854,000 who would be eligible, if none of them were getting an extra discretionary allowance, for the full 5s. proposed in the Amendment. If we discount the fact that some of them will be getting an extra discretionary amount, the total cost in a full year, on the known statistics, would be about £11 million, but this is a gross figure and it would probably be less because of the discretionary allowances which are already being paid.
This is a small price to pay by a society which undoubtedly has a duty to make the last years of our old people's lives as comfortable as possible. This is not a question of asking a benevolent State to pay a dole but of asking society to accept a little more of its responsibility towards the elderly. I agree that any critic of the Amendment who suggests that an extra 5s. after 10 years of retirement is not as much as it might be, but the figure has been pitched at this deliberately in the hope that such a modest advance may be acceptable to the Government. My hon. Friends have not tabled the Amendment because it is part of our party's policy or that we wish to pay lip service to that policy. We genuinely believe that it is desirable to improve the supplementary benefits for those who are in their final years.
We are asking for minimum action to be taken urgently and we do not want promises for the future or statements to the effect that the matter will be considered by a commission or that an inquiry will be conducted. Ideally, we would like to have a bigger increase than that suggested. Ideally, too, it would be an improvement to have further increases each subsequent five years after the 10 years is up, but we recognise the difficulties of innovation and the major obstacle which exists due to the state of the economy. We merely require recognition of this principle and the establishment of this precedent and even the most granite-hearted curmudgeon must agree that it is desirable that the Government should accept this inexpensive and modest proposal.
I have deliberately tried to move the Amendment with moderation so that the very real arguments in favour of its acceptance should not be obscured by partison postures. This should not, however, be taken as a sign of weakness. We are sincere about this and feel extremely strongly on the subject. I would not like the Minister to be in any doubt about this and I hope that, when the Joint Parliamentary Secretary replies, he will not merely deliver a stereotyped, stonewalling, Departmental reply.
I hope that the case will be considered on its merits and that it will be possible to place the needs of the elderly above what might be an understandable party

political desire to reject proposals coming from this side of the Committee. I ask the Minister to give sympathetic consideration to the growing needs of the elderly in retirement and to accept this worthwhile and humanitarian Amendment.

Mr. Harold Davies: I have listened with sympathy and understanding to the remarks of the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland), and I assure him that I will not reply in a stereotyped fashion. I have noted with interest the large number of names on the Notice Paper in support of the proposal, and I accept that they sincerely support it. I also assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend is no curmudgeon when it comes to the needs of the elderly.

Mr. Holland: It was not my intention to give that impression.

Mr. Davies: I had the impression that it might have been and so I wanted immediately to eradicate from the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite any thought that my right hon. Friend or any of my hon. Friends have hearts of granite. Far from it. Despite the economic exigencies, additional aid for retirement pensioners was one of our first actions upon taking office. Let us, however, come to the realities of the situation.
I am grateful for the speed with which we are getting through the Committee stage. However, speed must not clutter up our thoughts and the clarity of our aims. It is our duty to see that the last years of our citizens are made as comfortable as possible. Everybody throughout the land would agree with that. The question is one of translating this into practice by the Government. It might therefore help the Committee in considering the Amendment if I remind hon. Members why the Government introduced the novel feature of the long-term addition. This 9s. allowance is a completely new innovation. I was glad to hear that the hon. Member for Carlton recognised this. There is nothing stereotyped about it. Its purpose is to cover the great bulk of special needs of the kind met by discretionary allowances under National Assistance. It will enable the Commission to dispense with detailed inquiries, which was one of the things we promised in our Election


manifesto, into needs which are necessary in every case under the administration of National Assistance.
I regard this as an important point because our aim has been to create the new scheme in a form which will give our old people an assured income on an annual basis with the minimum of detailed inquiry. That being so, the question is whether, on this basis, the long-term addition ought, as the Amendment suggests, to be put on a preferential footing of the older retirement pensioners. After looking at the matter in depth, we found no grounds for doing this.
2.45 p.m.
The long-term addition is for special needs. It cannot for certain be shown that these needs exist to a higher degree among older pensioners than among younger pensioners. The most relevant evidence available relates to the use of discretionary allowances in National Assistance for people over pensionable age. Taken over the whole year, we found that the weekly average was less than 9s. It will therefore be noted that in giving 9s., we have given more than the average. As a result, the long-term discretionary allowance will totally replace the previous discretionary allowances in something like two-thirds of the existing cases who receive those additions. The remaining one-third have substantial needs. It can be shown that cases with higher special needs exist among all types of age groups. If it could be shown that all the cases with the higher needs were among men over 75 or women over 70, there might be merit in the Amendment, but that is not the case as far as we can judge from our evidence. The Opposition have not given relevant figures to support their case.
The average addition among those over the age of 70 is not known. What is known is that among the non-contributory old-age pensioners receiving assistance, who by definition must be at least 74 years of age, the average addition during the year is well below 9s. a week. Consequently, on this basis, we see no reason to think that the average amount for those over 70 or 75 years of age is appreciably more than for all old people above pensionable age. We

know from a sample of cases that, as regards the proportion of pensioners receiving additions, there is nothing of special significance about the age of 75, because in each of the five-year age ranges on either side of 75 about three-quarters are now getting discretionary allowances.
Considered as a measure to replace the existing mass of discretionary additions, the long-term addition does not, therefore, need to be at any higher rate for the over-75s as a whole than for the younger pensioner. While I do not want to be political, this matter has a long history in the policy of the Opposition. I do not want to repeat the famous remark about the donation that the then Prime Minister offered to retirement pensioners.
We have tried to do what was fair. We believe that the very old are not a homogeneous group who can be shown as a category and as a whole to have greater identifiable needs than younger pensioners. We must not jump to that assumption. Many, indeed, have fewer needs. If the purpose of the Amendment is to deal with any suggestion that their resources are eroded by the passage of time and years of retirement, the non-contributory benefit scheme itself is the remedy.
For the first time, the scheme recognises the special position in this respect of pensioners and others out of the employment field, and it does this by providing a long-term addition. If, on the other hand, the hon. Member for Carlton is arguing that on grounds of ill-health many of these people need extra help, the Bill, which we have been dealing with this week, enables the Commission to give it where it is most needed and to give more than the extra 9s. by virtue of its discretionary powers. The Committee therefore should consider the inequity of giving preference to the older people merely by one fell swoop as suggested in the Amendment.
I have not based my argument on cost. I will not bother to take the issue of cost, but no responsible Government could undertake an open-ended or unlimited financial commitment. Both we and the Opposition would agree that our resources must be allocated with an eye to priorities. Having looked at our priorities, we believe that we have got the right balance.
To sum up, I assure the Committee that with the powers already proposed in the Bill any man over the age of 75 or any old lady over the age of 70 who happens to be in circumstances similar to those envisaged by the hon. Member for Carlton will duly get satisfaction and, through the discretionary powers provided in the 13i11, will be enabled to have his or her needs met even above the 9s. long-term addition, if necessary.

Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee (Wokingham): The Joint Parliamentary Secretary's reply is most depressing, not because he has not, as always, applied his great humanity to the problem, but because he seeks to persuade the Committee that the principle which we on this side put forward is wrong. That is what depresses me. I shall not argue figures across the Floor of the Committee. I would have understood the hon. Gentleman had he sought to say that as a member of a responsible Government he cannot accept the figures quoted in the Amendment. I could even have accepted it had he said that he could not agree to any increment for financial reasons.
We are going through a continuing process. A few moments ago, for example, there was a loud gale of laughter from a number of hon. Members opposite, who had been conspicuous by their absence from our proceedings both today and on Monday, because we were talking about a continuing process. My hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland), who moved the Amendment so persuasively, has the right to be regarded on both sides as one of those who, sometimes out of step with his own leaders, has been progressively working at this problem over the years. If in Committee of the whole House hon. Members cannot on important Amendments such as this express progressive thought without being laughed at, we shall be a sterile place.
The greater number of those at present being assisted are of pensionable age or above. This is not a controversial fact. Of those who are above pensionable age a substantial proportion are of the age mentioned in the Amendment. This is recognised on both sides of the Committee. All that the Amendment seeks to do is to establish the principle that, as one further step in the continuing process to which both sides of the Corm-

mittee are contributing, it should he recognised that age as such as of right in this context should be financially recognised.
I should have been perfectly prepared to have seen the Amendment withdrawn on purely financial grounds, because I am not prepared to argue figures. Medical science is enabling us to live much longer. The fact that we are living much longer brings with it social and other problems with which both sides of the Committee are only too familiar. It must surely be part of our continuing policy that this factor be recognised.
The proposition in the Amendment would be another step in that continuing social policy. Let it be said generously from this side of the Committee that we are discussing an interesting suggestion which is itself an extension of this policy, namely, a payment as of right after a period of years, which I say without any reservation is an interesting extension. This is a case when we could latch on to that the accepted fact of present-day life: advancing age, bringing with it social difficulties, social pressures and financial demands, could well be recognised by the State.
I found the somewhat limited reply which the Parliamentary Secretary made to this very warm Amendment one of the more depressing features of our discussions today.

3.0 p.m.

Mr. Dean: I am bound to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's reply to this proposal was exceedingly disappointing. The hon. Gentleman appeared to question the proposition that need grows with age. The hon. Gentleman must agree that someone aged 75 is likely to be feebler than someone aged 65; he is likely to be in need of more heat to keep him warm in his home; he is probably on a special diet; after 10 years in retirement the chances are that clothes and household goods are wearing out and need replacing, although they may well have been in good condition on retirement.
At 75, people find it much more difficult to earn and, therefore, to eke out their pensions than people at 65. These are strong pointers to the fact that people


are likely to be relatively worse off at 75 than at 65. This is one of the main reasons why we believe that it should be recognised that need grows with age
The second point made by the Parliamentary Secretary was that the discretionary additions can take care of additional needs as age increases. One of the objects of the Bill it has been emphasised time and time again—is that as far as possible inquiries should he avoided. On Second Reading, the right hon. Lady said:
The purpose of this long-term addition is a simple one. It is to remove in these cases the need to inquire into the small day-to-day expenses for which the bulk of the discretionary allowances are now made."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th May, 1966; Vol. 729, c. 341.]
The Parliamentary Secretary has said that if people at 75 or at any other age need additions over and above the 9s. they can turn back to the discretionary additions. The right hon. Lady herself emphasised, and I believe absolutely rightly, that we want to avoid detailed inquiries as far as possible. If we want to avoid them at the age of 65, is it not much more important to avoid them at the age of 75 and later?
For those two reasons I am exceedingly disappointed, as are my right hon. Friends, with the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, and unless we can have more satisfaction on these points I hope

that my hon. Friend will press the Amendment.

Mr. Harold Davies: May I say a few words in an attempt to avoid a Division on this Amendment? It must be remembered that under the Bill non-contributory benefit will be payable up to a limit of about £1,500 capital. Non-contributory benefit payment to a married couple receiving retirement pensions and no other income, and with a rent of £3 a week, will cease only when the capital reaches £1,525.

Mr. Dean: That does not answer the point that I made, that although we have this 9s. addition at the age of 65 automatically, there is no automatic addition which recognises that need grows with age.

Miss Pike: I do not want to speak for more than a moment, because we must press on. We have assured the right hon. Lady that she will get the Bill this afternoon. But this is an important matter of principle. We have argued it out. We feel very strongly about it, and in those circumstances I hope the Amendment will be pressed to a Division.

Question put, That those words be there inserted:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 37, Noes 121.

Division No. 27.]
AYES
[3.7 p.m.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Scott, Nicholas


Batsford, Brian
Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin
Sinclair, Sir George


Bell, Ronald
Holland, Philip
Smith, John


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Hordern, Peter
Teeling, Sir William


Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward
Howell, David (Guildford)
Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John


Braine, Bernard
Hunt, John
Vickers, Dame Joan


Costain, A. P.
Longden, Gilbert
Ward, Dame Irene


Dance, James
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)


Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Worsley, Marcus


Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Pike,



Foster, Sir John
Miss Mervyn
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Pink, R. Bonner
Mr. Peter Maker and


Glover, Sir Douglas
Pym, Francis
Mr. Reginald Eyre.


Grant, Anthony
Roots, William





NOES


Albu, Austen
Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)


Armstrong, Ernest
Crawshaw, Richard
Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)


Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George
Faulds, Andrew


Barnes, Michael
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)


Beaney, Alan
Davies, Robert (Cambridge)
Floud, Bernard


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Delargy, Hugh
Foley, Maurice


Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John
Fowler, Gerry


Bishop, E. S.
Dickens, James
Fraser, John (Norwood)


Booth, Albert
Dunnett, Jack
Freeson, Reginald


Brown,Bob(N'ctle-upon-Tyne,W)
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)
Gardner, A. J.


Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)
Gray, Dr. Hugh


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
English, Michael
Gregory, Arnold


Chapman, Donald
Ennals, David
Hart, Mrs. Judith




Hattersley, Roy
MacPherson, Malcolm
Roebuck, Roy


Hazen, Bert
Marquand, David
Rogers, George


Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Mellish, Robert
Rowland, Christopher (Meriden)


Hilton, W. S.
Mendelson, J. J.
Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.)


Hooley, Frank
Mikardo, Ian
Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)


Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.


Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)
Molloy, William
Short,RtHn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)


Howie, W.
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Silkin, John (Deptford)


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Moyle, Roland
Skeffington, Arthur


Janner, Sir Barnett
Murray, Albert
Slater, Joseph


Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,s.)
Newens, Stan
Snow, Julian


Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Norwood, Christopher
Swain, Thomas


Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Orbach, Maurice
Taverne, Dick


Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull,W.)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Thorpe, Jeremy


Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Tuck, Raphael


Judd, Frank
Pardoe, J.
Walden, Brian (All Saints)


Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)
Park, Trevor
Wallace, George


Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)
Pavitt, Laurence
Watkins, David (Consett)


Kerr, Russell (Feltham)
Pentland, Norman
Wellbeloved, James


Leadbitter, Ted
Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Whitaker, Ben


Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)
Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
White, Mrs. Eirene


Lee, Johr (Reading)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Williams, Alan Lee (HOrnchurch)


Luard, Evan
Price, William (Rugby)
Winnick, David


Lubbock, Eric
Pursey, Cmdr. Harry
Zilliacus, K.


Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Redhead, Edward



MacDermot, Niall
Reynolds, G. W.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Macdonald, A. H.
Richard, Ivor
Mr. George Lawson and


Mackie, John
Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Mr. William Whitlock.


Maclennan, Robert
Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)

3.15 p.m.

Mr. Dean: I beg to move Amendment No. 14, in page 23, line 22, to leave out "2 years" and to insert "6 months".

The Chairman: I suggest that with Amendment No. 14 the Committee might discuss Amendment No. 15, in line 22, at end insert:
except in the case of persons on the disabled persons' employment register",
Amendment No. 16, in page 23, leave out lines 23 to 25; and Amendment No. 17, in line 25, at end insert:
(c) he has been in receipt of sickness or unemployment benefit for a continuous period of not less than six months.
I understand that it might be desired to hale a Division on Amendment. No. 15 as well as on Amendment No. 14. I merely point out to the Committee that in view of the time and the general desire to obtain the Third Reading of the Bill today a second Division might prejudice the Third Reading.

Mr. Dean: I shall be extremely brief in moving the Amendment. The intention is to pay the automatic 9s. addition to those who are getting the supplementary allowance after six months rather than two years. The Amendment does not deal with pensioners because they get the automatic addition at once, nor does it deal with the unemployed, who are covered by Amendment No. 15. I hope that on this occasion we shall have the support of the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger),

who has tabled a similar Amendment, one which goes rather further than ours, but is on the same lines.
The significance of six months rather than two years is that it is at the end of six months that the graduated benefits under a previous Measure end. Therefore, the main aim of the Amendment is, at any rate as far as the poorest are concerned, to lock in the short-term graduated benefits with the long-term benefits provided under this Bill. We raised this point on the Bill providing for the short-term benefits. On that occasion we asked what would happen when the short-term benefits ended at the end of six months, and the right hon. Lady told us, fairly, to wait for this Bill. We have waited for this Bill, and we now find that there is a gap of at least 18 months between the end of the graduated benefits and the start of the long-term additions.
I believe that the Government have failed to take this opportunity to lock in the short-term and the long-term benefits. Two years for the start of the long-term benefits in these cases seems purely arbitrary. It does not make sense in our social policy, and I do not believe that it will make sense to those involved. To be charitable to the right hon. Lady, it may well be that on this occasion it is the Treasury talking and that it has not allowed her to go any further. I see her nodding.

Miss Herbison: Miss Herbison indicated dissent.

Mr. Dean: I was hoping that that was the main reason for it. In the Amendment we merely ask that needs should be reflected more effectively than they are now. Under the Amendment only the poorest will get the full benefit. Only the poorest will get their long-term benefits when their short-term benefits under the earlier Bill expire. There is little doubt that the majority of people with whom we are concerned in this Amendment have long-term needs, such as the sick.
The figures for sickness benefit show quite clearly that if a person has been sick for six months, the chances are, unhappily, that that person's health has broken down and he is, in effect, chronically sick and may well be in as much need of the long-term benefit as an old person. I am thinking, too, of the no-pension widow who is widowed just on the wrong side of 50 and who will get no pension after six months. If, as is likely, she requires additional help at the end of that time, the chances are that it will be required on a long-term basis. So I hope that the right hon. Lady will at any rate agree that here we are dealing with needs which are likely to be permanent.
I want to give one concrete illustration of how the Bill will work at the moment and how the Amendment would work. Let us take the case of a man earning £12 a week, with a wife and four children, who has been struck down by a serious illness. He will get some short-term graduated sickness benefit for six months under the earnings-related scheme. It is likely that he will get less than the full amount because of the earnings stop which the Minister introduced into the short-term scheme; but, because the wages stop under the Bill is more favourable than the earnings stop, it may be that the man will also get a supplementary allowance from the Commission.
Even if he is getting a supplementary allowance right from the beginning of his sickness, he will still have an 18-month gap between the end of the short-term benefit at six months and the beginning of the long-term rate of supplementary allowance at two years. He may well have three different rates of benefit within a period of two years. I cannot believe that that accurately reflects the need of that man and his family.
Under the Amendment, he would qualify for the 9s. long-term supplementary allowance as soon as his short-term benefit under the graduated scheme ran out at the end of six months; in other words, the two would be locked in.
If it is right, as I believe, to give the 9s. long-term supplementary allowance to pensioners at once, there is an equally strong case for saying that the sick man and his family should be eligible for it as soon as his graduated sickness benefit expires. I am sure that the right hon. Lady wants to reflect as accurately and as fairly as she can the needs of people in the allowances which they are given. I hope that she will be convinced of the justice of the Amendment.

Mrs. Lena Jeger: I understand that we are taking several Amendments together, and I had put down an Amendment suggesting that the two-year period should be cut to six months. I was concerned about the apparent contradiction with the provisions of the wage-related benefits. I had hoped that this Measure would rationalise our social security provisions and provide a more integrated system. I could not understand why we were likely to have a situation where, for about six months, a man would get wage-related benefit, and there would then be this slump until he had been ill for two years. I should like an explanation of the position.
My second point refers to the exclusion of the unemployed from the 9s. benefit under the present terms of the Bill, even after two years of unemployment. I must tell my right hon. Friend that I think this is a mean situation. We know that most of the long-term unemployed are getting very nearly on the fringe of the unemployable in the present economic conditions. We are anxious to encourage people who have been ill, who have had disablement and breakdowns to get back to work, to register for employment, rather than to go on drawing sickness benefit. The effect of the Bill is that if one of these borderline cases, a man who could sit back and draw sick benefit, is encouraged by my right hon. Friend's local officers to register for employment and to try a light job, the very act of registering him disqualifies him from obtaining the 9s. for two years, that is supposing that he is unlucky in obtaining work.
That seems to be so unkind that I feel I must have misinterpreted the intentions of my right hon. Friend and I hope that she will be able to help me. There is such a hazy dividing line between the unemployed and the unemployable, between the sick and inadequate and those who can just hold down a job. It may be that there is a fear of encouraging idleness underlying this rule. A penal attitude to unemployment does not belong on this side of the Committee. If we are afraid of work-shy people taking advantage of this small extra benefit, my right hon. Friend has adequate powers under Clause 30 to deal with this.
We must accept that there are many parts of the country where it is not always the fault of the person concerned that he has not been able to get work for two years, either through reasons of geographical unemployment or because of his own state of health. I must point out that of people who have been unemployed for more than a year, one in four are registered disabled, but registered for employment. Surely we want to encourage the disabled to do this, but if putting men on the employment list means that they will be disqualified from the 9s. I cannot see the social sense in this. Because of the shortage of time I hope that I have made my anxieties clear and I will await the Minister's explanation.

Mr. Braine: Owing to the pressure on time it might be convenient if I spoke now to Amendment No. 15. By now I should imagine that the Committee will be well aware of some of the strange anomalies and injustices of our much-vaunted Welfare State, especially as regards the disabled. I entirely agree with the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Leger) that it should be our aim to help the disabled to live as normally as their disability permits.
This means encouraging them, wherever possible, to overcome their physical handicaps and the psychological and social difficulties which these so often bring, by becoming self-supporting and self-respecting members of the community. As the Bill stands, while the normal scale of benefit is avaliable to unemployed persons of working age provided that they are registered for work,

they cannot get the 9s. a week addition, although they may be unemployed for two years or more. The purpose of Amendment No. 15 is to except all persons on the Disabled Persons Employment Register so as to enable them to get the extra 9s. a week, if they are unemployed for two years or more.
This Amendment would ensure that disabled people who have had their names added to the Disabled Persons Employment Register would still be eligible for the 9s. a week after two years, and it is deliberately designed to encourage the disabled to register for employment. The Amendment recognises the fact that there are a number of people who, by virtue of their disability have been unable to obtain employment for at least two years and that in equity and justice, they should be treated as generously as other categories of persons who qualify for the special addition of 9s. after two years.
3.30 p.m.
One disablement resettlement officer told me recently that many of the people with whom he has to deal suffer pain and discomort from their disability, so that they are somewhat on a par with those who are actually sick. One has to recognise that the physically handicapped are not just disabled, but in many cases are enduring discomfort in the same way as people who are drawing sick benefit. Their advancing age, the very nature of their handicap, and the limitations this imposes on the kind of employment which they can undertake are all too frequent causes for their not obtaining some kind of light job. There is often a lack of opportunity to demonstrate what they can do. The disablement resettlement officer told me that his office does everything possible to exert its persuasive powers on employers, bearing in mind the quota obligations, but not always successfully.
I should like to give the Committee an example from within my own knowledge. I am not culling the examples I give from thin air; they are all constituency cases. Let me take the case of a strong and healthy man in his late thirties, a young and vigorous man, who was suddenly struck down by a disease of the nervous system which paralysed him from the waist down. His wife does part-time work in order to help. He


pathetically desires to work and has regularly signed on at the employment exchange. He is pushed there by his wife in a wheelchair.
After two and a half years, due to the devoted work of the D.R.O. and a sympathetic employer, a job was found within his capacity. I am advised by those well qualified to know that, unless the Amendment is accepted, this man would never qualify for the 9s. addition should he ever become unemployed.
I think that we are all agreed that the legislative framework of our arrangements, not the arrangements themselves, but the legislative framework, for rehabilitating and guiding disabled workers into suitable employment is satisfactory. That was the conclusion of the Piercy Committee nearly a decade after the passing of the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944. Our Act of 1958 made no substantial changes.
As the Committee knows, the Acts define a disabled person as one who
on account of injury, disease, or congenital deformity, is substantally handicapped in obtaining or keeping employment"—
the Committee will note that we are talking about someone who is substantially disabled—
or in undertaking work on his own account, of a kind which apart from that injury, disease or deformity would be suited to his age, experience and qualifications …
"Suitable employment" means both employment in open conditions and, in cases of severe disability, in sheltered conditions.
In February of this year, there were 659,000 persons registered on the Disabled Persons Employment Register. Of those, 47,000 were unemployed. About 40,000 of those were considered as being suitable for ordinary open work, the rest for work in sheltered conditions. These figures mean that unemployment among registered disabled workers is five times as great as the national average, and this at a time of acute labour shortage. Indeed, the situation may well become worse when the ill-considered Selective Employment Tax begins to bite on the service industries.
Why do not more disabled persons register and why is there this high rate

of unemployment? The truth of the matter is that nobody knows. I do not think that the Minister knows and certainly the Ministry of Labour does not know. That is one reason why my hon. Friends and I would have liked to have seen more positive and searching duties put on the officers of the Commission. But I have no doubt that one reason is that the present rehabilitation and training facilities are inadequate. I have known of disabled men completely disheartened by having to wait considerable periods for a training course.
It is also possible that some registered disabled workers are graded for open employment when in fact they are suitable only for work in sheltered workshops but there are no such facilities in the area. There is every reason to believe that a great many disabled persons are not registered. Bearing in mind the difficulties of those who are registered, they see no advantage in registering themselves.
I suspect too that there may be many persons who have left employment because of a worsening disability and who are not registered. By virtue of the disability they are limited in the sort of work they can do, or the length of journey they can undertake to get to work.
One experienced disabled resettlement officer told me last year, when I was making inquiries about this, "We do, of course, often deal with disabled persons who prefer not to be registered. There is no compulsion about it and some even regard it as a deterrent to obtaining a job".
The number of those on the register has fallen from 936,000 in 1950 to 659,000 today. This is partly because large numbers of men who were registered in the early 'fifties were the survivors of the First World War and were then still under retirement age. But that is not the whole story. If at one end of the scale disabled persons are not registering because they think that to do so prevents them from getting a job, then at the other end they are not bothering to register because the present National Assistance regulations positively deter them from returning to work.
It is relevant here to draw attention to a challenging and thought-provoking


article by Lady Hamilton in a recent number of New Society. She said this:
No work can be done without reducing allowances. No wonder some feel disinclined to exchange National Assistance Board allowances for the strain of mastering work despite handicap. Those who have some private means receive scant help in their efforts to find employment. By making an outright attempt to get out and earn a living, a disabled person inevitably becomes involved in higher living costs. Difficulties of accessibility, accommodation and transport assail him at every turn. No income tax relief is allowed to meet these extra commitments. Present conditions encourage the handicapped to settle for the meagre safety net provided by the welfare state.
If the Amendment is accepted I suggest that there would be some real advantage to the disabled to register for employment, knowing that by so doing they will be kept in touch with the labour market without prejudicing their right to receive the 9s. addition to the supplementary allowance after two years. I hope that the right hon. Lady will see the force of the argument and the justice of the case.

Mr. Michael Alison: I should like to add just a few words to the powerful case made by my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) and by the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger). I have been looking at the figures given in an interesting article i a the Ministry of Labour Gazette, which many hon. Members will have read, analysing the breakdown of the national unemployment figures, which totalled 317,000 at the last count.
This very interesting analysis showed Mat nearly half of those on the ordinary national unemployment register, about 150,000, could be broken down in turn into groups which were very broadly referred to as people who were unemployable. About 150,000 people were described specifically in the Gazette as those predominantly disabled, elderly or both for whom the scope for training or other action is limited.
Of that global figure of about 150,000 elderly or disabled, it was reckoned that at least 60,000 were disabled. This represents a very large percentage of those who are covered by the figure of 1·5 per cent. unemployment in our full employment society. It is essential that this group of people should be encouraged to get on to the disabled unemployment

register if they are not already on it. It may be that they are, but we do not have the facts. I would stress that it is a much more difficult problem than I believe many people appreciate to guide the disabled other than the blind to the sort of work which they may be able to do.
It is quite interesting to look at some of the special facilities which are provided for the blind as a particular group of the disabled. If one looks at the special provisions made for the blind, quite apart from the provisions of the Bill, and I am thinking specifically in terms of employment, one sees there are innumerable special channels through which the blind can be found satisfactory work—in light engineering, shorthand and typewriting, telephone operation, physiotherapy, the monitoring of the radio, as was referred to by Lady Hamilton in that interesting article in that magazine which has been mentioned.
A great many opportunities have been deliberately opened up to the blind. Indeed, I was talking to a constituent of mine the other day who was in trouble as a blind person in finding employment. This person, in fact, although he was on the blind register, had such a degree of what is technically called residual sight that he was able to conceal from many of his employers, until quite a long time after he had started work, the fact that he was blind. Yet this person was on the register and open to all the special treatment the blind receive.
We ought to give a specific boost to those who are in a wider category of disablement, those who suffer from the various kinds of arthritis, the victims of sclerosis, those who have had amputations and suffer under other surgical disabilities—perhaps, above all, to those who suffer behaviour and mental in-capacities. They all need more encouragement given to them to get on the register, and for those disabled in terms other than those of blindness, for that sort of work which many of them could do, particularly in modern circumstances with the sedentary work involved in some of our manufacturing and other processes, besides, of course, office work, much more should be done by way of training facilities.
I hope that the right hon. Lady will consider sympathetically what seems to me a bipartisan approach to the disabled, and to encourage the development of the technique of analysing a bit more carefully the nature and degree of disability. It is notable that blindness, although it has been for long an easily identifiable disability, has many gradations within it. Some people classed as blind have so nearly full sight through what is called residual sight that they are not anything like as badly disabled as others far less favourably treated.

Miss Herbison: Although it is evident that these are three important Amendments, I shall have to deal with them most inadequately because of the short time which is available. The first point I should make is that all these Amendments, like the last one we discussed and on which we voted, really misconceive the purpose of the long-term addition. Every single one of them misconceives the purpose of the long-term addition. The long-term addition is not—for the benefit of the Committee I must emphasise that it is not—to provide a preferential rate of benefit for long-term cases.
It is because people believe that it provides a preferential rate for long-term cases that we have had the kind of speeches which we have had on these Amendments. But it is not. The long-term addition is to avoid the need for detailed inquiries into special expenses of the kind which have to be made by the Board in cases under National Assistance. That is what the long-term addition is for.
In the case of those claiming supplementary allowance and who qualify for long-term addition, it will be clear that they will probably be living on their benefit for the rest of their lives. But for cases covered by these Amendments, in spite of all that has been said on them, there is just not any certainty that that is the case.
The question was raised about having six months instead of two years. Some of the figures which I have got from the National Assistance Board will be helpful to the Committee
3.45 p.m.
In December, 1965, 420,000 people below pension age—those with whom we are concerned in the Amendments—other than the unemployed, had been getting help from the Board for six months or more. When we consider what has happened to them since, however, we find that about a third of the people who require assistance for six months or more cease to need it at some time during the next 18 months.
We decided—I can assure the Committee that we gave the greatest consideration to what the period should be—on the information which we had that, in the light of the figures, a six- or a 12-months period would be too short to say with any confidence that this would be a long-term case.
A number of hon. Members have related the Amendments to the earnings-related benefits and suggested that the long-term addition would cushion the effect of the benefit when it was reduced to the standard rate after six months. I have already explained the purpose of the long-term addition. It is not to give a preferential rate.
Let me give two examples. The low wage-earner with a family who falls sick may be, as the hon. Member said, getting non-contributory benefit under the Bill right from the beginning of his receipt of sickness benefit. He is the man who will have perhaps no earnings-related supplement, or only a very small one. At the end of six months, there will be no fall in his income. There will be no difference, because the non-contributory benefit will be made up by the Commission to the extent that there has been a fall in his contributory benefit. In that case, no cushion is required. The difference will have to be made up by the Commission.
Another example is that of the person who qualifies when his earnings-related supplement ceases. He may have had a bigger earnings-related supplement. He will not be 9s. worse off because the long-term addition is not paid. Any special needs that the man has will be considered by the Commission, as they will in the other cases I talked about. The wage-stop worries me considerably, because that can cause great hardship. Because the 9s. is not a preferential payment, the Commission will be able to


look at the case. There is no real analogy between the earnings-related benefits and his 9s. long-term addition.
I should like to speak about the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger), which would provide for the long-term unemployed after two years. I can again give figures, but I will give them to her afterwards, as I am worried about the time. We have figures which clearly show the relatively small number of the long-term unemployed who are at present getting extra benefit, compared with the 75 per cent. or 80 per cent. of pensioners who are getting it. I pass this on to my hon. Friend, because I know how interested she is in this matter.
Once again, the important thing to remember in these cases, as I said in dealing with the wage-stop, is that where there are special needs—sickness in the home or anything else—the Commission has the power so use its discretion.
I now come to the third Amendment, which concerns people on the Disabled Persons' Register. Misconceived though it might be, the Amendment has been discussed very reasonably. The hon. Member will be interested in the latest figures which we have for these disabled. Only those can be registered who can lake a job. They are the only people registered on the Disabled Persons' Register. Of the 658,925—that is the latest number—registered, there were fewer than 50,000 who were unemployed.
I can assure the Committee that this does not work like a wage-stop; there is no question of these people being done out of anything. Where there are special needs in all these cases, the Commission will have the power to provide for them.
It is for those reasons and not for any monetary reason, not because the Treasury would not allow me to do it, that I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Schedule agreed to.

Schedules 3 to 8 agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

3.52 p.m.

Miss Pike: I do not wish to delay the House. We promised that we would let the Government get the Bill, and although the proceedings have been a little hurried at the end, this is a promise that we wish to honour.
We have had very useful and good debates. The proceedings on Monday and today showed that there was a great deal of substance in the debate. I only wish, as I am sure do hon. Members on both sides of the House, that we had had longer on the Bill, because although we have welcomed the Bill, it has fallen far short in many respects of many of our hopes. It has missed a great many opportunities. I do not blame the right hon. Lady for that. I know that she would have wished to go further but that in many respects she has been blocked by the Treasury. In many cases she would have probably have gone further had she had the money. I hope that this is the case, because although we have put forward many constructive suggestions, we have had to accept the assurance of her good intentions as to what would happen in the future. We are not blinded by her good intentions. I am sure that she will try to honour them. But we would have preferred them written into the Bill and made a definite responsibility upon future Governments and Parliaments.
Nevertheless, the Bill marks an important step forward. It is an important act of justice for those people who find that their resources are being constantly eroded in one way or another. It is an important act of justice for those to whom society as a whole bears a great deal of responsibility. It has also been an important step forward because it has marked a very responsible attitude on both sides of the House to a test of need. We all accept, whether we like it or not, that if we are to discharge our responsibilities in society in future we must have our priorities and we must ensure that we have a realistic test of need if we are to use our scarce resources to our best possible judgment.
There is much more that I should like to say, but I want the right hon. Lady to have the opportunity of a few words before we conclude the proceedings. Disappointed though we are, in that opportunities have been missed, we


are glad that we have taken the Bill on to the Statute Book.

3.55 p.m.

Miss Herbison: I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady the Member for Melton (Miss Pike) feels that we have come to the end of a marathon. I was worried on several occasions during our proceedings today that we would not complete our deliberations on the Bill. However, we have, and I say "Thank you" to the hon. Lady, her team on the Front Bench opposite, and all her hon. Friends for the undoubted help which they have given us in reaching this stage of the Bill at this time. I also thank my hon. Friends who, time and again, have held themselves back because they were anxious that we should complete our discussions, although I know that they would have liked to have taken part in them.
Having reached this stage, it means that the Bill will be on the Statute Book before we rise for the Summer Recess. I take this opportunity to ask all hon. Members, from the time the Measure reaches the Statute Book until we begin to make payments, to point out in their constituencies and wherever else they speak in the country the importance of the Bill and to explain to everyone, particularly the elderly, what they can get as of right under the Bill. In this way we will be able to ensure that the financial help available in these provisions goes to the 250,000 old people who are at present living well below National Assistance Board levels. It is the desire of the whole nation that these people should be helped.
I conclude by again saying "Thank you" to all the officials of the Departments who have played an important part in the work which had to be done to get the provisions ready, and saying to the officials of the new Ministry, "We are giving you a very big job to do. We shall ask for your devoted service and I am sure that we shall get it".

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Orders of the Day — POST OFFICE SERVICES, BRIGHTON

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]

3.57 p.m.

Sir William Teeling: I wish that the post office in Brighton could get its letters through as quickly as in the last few minutes we completed the final stage of the Ministry of Social Security Bill.
I raise the subject of the Brighton Post Office because it covers not only Brighton but a large part of the South Coast. In the 22 years I have had experience of these problems, including the war period, never have there been so many complaints and never have things seemed so bad as they do now. I have not consulted the postmaster in Brighton on this subject because I did not want to embarrass him too much. There are strong rumours that he is having very great difficulties with the Union of Post Office Workers, and I do not see why I should put him in an embarrassing position. I would prefer that to be dealt with by the headquarters in London. Furthermore, my fellow colleague in Brighton, the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Hobden), is closely connected with the Union of Post Office Workers and I have not wanted to drag him into this either. I prefer to take all the knocks, if there are any knocks coming, and to say what I think is wrong with the present position.
The Assistant Postmaster-General will recall that a few weeks ago I started asking Questions on this subject. I was greatly surprised to be told in one Answer I received, when I asked that the Postmaster-General should go to Brighton to see what was going on, that he had already been and was quite satisfied that the conditions prevailing there were very good. How can they be very good in view of all the complaints that are being made? The fact that the quite young Postmaster-General should feel so certain that everything——

It being Four o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]

Sir W. Teeling: I felt that perhaps he did not have enough experience to know when things were going right or wrong in the post office. If the Assistant Postmaster-General, who is to reply to this debate, tells me that something like 35 million letters have to be dealt with and mistakes naturally occur, will he tell me why such a large proportion of them have to occur in this South Coast area?
Obviously, after I had sent him several more letters of complaint, the hon. Gentleman thought a bit about it again, because a week later he informed us that he would bring a public relations officer into the area to see whether the matter could not be sorted out. A little more feebly than previously, he said:
I have no reason to think that the Brighton post office is not in general giving a good service, but as part of an experiment I am going tc do this.
That was not quite as strong as his previous statement. I gather, therefore, that we are now to get the first step forward n the improvement and that we are to have a public relations officer.
That proposal met with considerable cynicism down in Brighton. I want the Assistant Postmaster-General to give us more details about this gentleman who is to be appointed. Will he be a person who is connected with the Post Office, who has been connected with it for a long time and who knows what all the problems are, or will he be somebody from outside? Many of my constituents have written to say that they would far prefer to have somebody like an ombudsman who would have power to do something about all these problems. If all that this gentleman does is to discover that certain trade union rules and regulations would be crossed if the unfortunate people who write their letters were to get what they wanted, will he have authority or power to do anything about it, or will he simply report to his postmaster, so that the whole matter merely ends up, as it has done so far, with letters of deep regret from the post-

master that people should have been so troubled and inconvenienced.
Does this gentleman know anything about the subject? I would very much like to know to whom he will speak when he has found out the problems. Will we hear anything more about them in Parliament, or will a report go simply into the Post Office files? If this new appointment is not a success, I should like to see a public inquiry into conditions in the area. I hope to justify why this suggestion is necessary.
I suppose that I have had at least 50 complaints. I shall not bother either the House or the Post Office with too many of them. Some have not been particularly serious, and some have been from angry people who have become tired of protesting. Nevertheless, I can well see their point of view when everything goes wrong for them. They are inclined to think, too, that the equipment is by no means up to date.
I find that in 1934, for example, the Wall's ice cream organisation which sold ice cream from its "Stop-me-and-buy-one" tricycles decided to become up to date and to use mechanical methods and advertised its tricycles for sale. The Brighton post office decided that it was a very good idea to buy them all up. That was in 1934. In parts of the Brighton area, especially in Shoreham, one can still see some postmen going round on their tricycles of the "Stop-me-and-buy-one" variety. That is the way the letters are delivered. It is no wonder that they are delivered somewhat late. There are also box-like arrangements—I do not know how to describe them accurately—in which the postmen take parcels round. Everything arrives late. Everybody gets annoyed.
I read in today's paper that Brighton Post Office is to buy up an area in Hove in an effort to make itself more modern and more up to date. I hope that the Post Office will scrap some of its old equipment and will also think of trying to make its postmen look a little smarter. If postmen are properly in uniform and look smart, it adds to efficiency. At present there is a great deal of complaint about the slovenliness of those who deliver the post and, generally, about the bad manners of those behind the counters in post offices in Brighton.
Then there are telephone problems. I want to read a little piece which appeared a few weeks ago in the Brighton Herald referring to the telephone system:
That useful instrument has surely never been more perverse, more obdurate, wayward, sullen, obstinate.
On a fairly average day this week we checked the behaviour of our own black and efficient-looking instrument. At first, suffering from an attack of some early-morning telemalaise, it responded with a shriek to every attempt to dial 9 for an outside line. Recovering, it then declined to accept the responsibility of connecting us with the exchange, employing the trick of pretending that every operator there was engaged.
Later it became even more cunning, and it did connect us to a number—only to cut us off with a sound like a demented buzz-saw as soon as the conversation began. In this way it repaid us for our earlier anger by making us pay three times over for a single call. During the day it proved impossible to dial any number which began with a 4 … and twice it displayed a sense of humour by cutting in on somebody else's conversation. It also got sevesral wrong numbers, but by then our hand was shaking and it might be unfair to blame the telephone.
This was what happened on one day in the Hove area when this newspaper tried out the telephone.
I got a certain amount of publicity from bringing these questions forward. The net result was that I received a letter at my home in Brighton. My home is not listed in the telephone directory and, presumably, is to be found only by people who really know where I live. This letter comes from the Post Office, London, S.E.2, and says:
Dear Mr. Teeling,
In reply to your inquiry about employment as a telephonist, I have pleasure in forwarding a copy of the conditions of service for telephonists in London.
The vacancies for which we are recruiting are in several districts in London but our training schools are situated in the City and Central London Areas and it will be necessary for you to live in London and find your own accommodation. If you wish"—
the next part is underlined in red ink—
to be considered for employment in London please let me know your date of birth and I will arrange for you to be interviewed as near to your home as possible.
This is not much use to me, because I gather that I am over the age they would take.
All these little complaints are possibly not too serious. I have received many

more serious complaints. People are suggesting that there is a considerable shortage of staff. The Question I put to the Assistant Postmaster-General elicited the information that the staff is practically the same—in fact, just a few fewer—as it was three or four years ago, yet the population in the area has increased considerably.
The Brighton population is not only a population of elderly people. There is also a very considerable population of business people—business people who commute to London and business people who come down at the weekends to their homes by the sea for a rest. They can still do quite a lot of business while they are at home in the country.
The worst periods for the post office is the delivery at weekends. One important and very well known business man who has asked not to be named has since 1961 been complaining that when stuff is sent down from his office in London on a Friday, or even from his offices near Brighton, it never arrives until Monday. Sometimes if letters are posted at about 5.15 p.m. on Friday in or around Brighton they will arrive at his home on Saturday morning. Equally often they do not. Then he has to send down to the Portslade Post Office and try to get them out.
On one occasion there was something that he particularly wanted. It was not in the two bags which had been opened for Saturday morning but was in a third one which I gather, for trade union reasons, was not ready by the time the postal workers stopped opening them on Friday night, and although it was sitting there and he knew it was there, nobody would open it till Monday. On one occasion he was going abroad on the Sunday. I can think of many occasions like that when a lot of business has been lost to this country.
Then there are many people who go up to London on business early in the morning and they cannot get their letters delivered before their trains leave. That is supposed to be because of lack of staff. But again one asks, why cannot the Post Office get the staff? It only seems to take male staff. Why cannot women be brought in? Women are working very well in the Post Office in many parts of the country. One cannot see why far more women are not brought in.
I have noticed that when my letters arrive in Hove from London they are tied in a bundle and, as every hon. Member knows, those bundles are so well tied that it is absolute agony to try to untie them unless one has a knife handy. On the other hand, at the Hove Post Office, for some reason or other, the letters almost always seem to be untied and get scattered about. One gets some of them the following Monday when people have looked through different parts of the Post Office where odd letters have perhaps fallen out of the bundle. I now have an arrangement so that all my letters arrive in one large envelope.
I promised that I would read a few extracts from letters to show that I am not exaggerating. Here is a letter from Preston Park Avenue:
I wish to bring to your notice the appalling service we have received from the Post Office during the last six months. We despatched an average of thirty to forty packets per day during the last six months. At least eight of these packets have not reached their destination. Three of these have been sent Recorded Delivery. Due to these losses, we have made claims to our insurance company, his resulting in larger premiums. To add to this we feel our business name is in jeopardy. We do feel this should be brought to your notice as the local post office seem unable to give an assurance that this will not happen again".
The Brighton Girls' Club, which is a well-known organisation, has sent me the Mowing copy of a letter which the organisation's warden originally sent to the postmaster at Brighton:
Dear Sir,
I heard with interest this morning on the sews that our Member of Parliament, Mr. William Teeling, had complained of the postal services in the Brighton and Hove district, and in reply; Mr. Wedgwood Benn had said there was no justification for this. I can assure you that he is totally incorrect in making this statement. The postal service in Brighton is deplorable and I hear complaints on all sides from both business and private concerns.
We do not have a very large post here, but delays and lost letters are not infrequent … A letter posted by Messrs. Parsons Son and 13asley, of Queen's Road, Brighton, on 21st March, did not arrive until 24th March. A letter from Parks and Gardens"—
that is, the Corporation Parks and Gardens Department—
sent to us early in April never arrived at all and this was not discovered until we telephoned at the end of April to inquire why the matter had not been attended to. Forms sent to the Education Department of

the Brighton Youth and Community Service, in December, never arrived at all and we had to send duplicates. This incident caused some considerable inconvenience to a number of people as they were concerned with the payment of instructors. A letter from us dated 10th February to Messrs. Alpha Coaches, in Ditchling Road, Brighton, did not arrive at all. We have had a Recorded Delivery letter delivered here, the address of which had no connection with this area at all. Frequently, second-class mail containing information about youth activities in Brighton sent out by the Youth and Community Office of Brighton does not reach us.
You may wonder why we have not registered a complaint before, but the fact is the postal service is so consistently bad and has been for so long that it seems pointless and a waste of time to be continually drawing attention to it. I think you will find that a number of people in Brighton and Hove feel the same way about it, which may perhaps have given rise to the complacent attitude of the Postmaster-General.
In the first letter I read there was a reference to insurance. It has been pointed out to me in one of the Answers that the Postmaster-General does not use any insurance because the Post Office is not liable for anything which happens to lost letters. Yet for parcels it is liable. There was the case of the Dolphin Press Ltd. In his Answer, the hon. Gentleman said that the Post Office regretted
the inconvenience caused by the serious delay to this parcel. The senders have been paid £5, which is the maximum compensation payable on an inland unregistered parcel. To cover compensation for loss or damage exceeding this amount, parcels must be registered; the maximum compensation which can be covered in this way is £400".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th January, 1966; Vol. 723, c. 72.]
If £5 to cover damage in respect of parcels can be paid, why not compensation if anything goes wrong with letters?
The hon. Gentleman will remember the question I put to him about the telegram which was sent from the President of Gabon, who was in Paris, to the Mayor of Brighton's brother, telling him about the non-arrival of his two sons. It was not delivered at the right time. It was very seriously delayed because the Post Office looked up and rang the wrong number and got the wrong people. In the end, a car had been sent—it was too late to stop it—to London Airport to collect the boys. They were not there, of course, and the Mayor's


brother claimed for his loss. But he was refused because no compensation is given for that sort of thing, for some reason or other.
Again, on the subject of parcels, I have here another complaint which reads:
In Mr. Wedgwood Benn's White Paper on the postal services, a loss of £6 million is forecast for the parcels service alone. I informed our Brighton Postmaster that, like the sender of a non-delivered parcel in February (one of two which failed to arrive that month) and that I would boycott the parcels service entirely, and send only by the ever-reliable Southdown Bus Parcels service in Sussex, which I and many of my friends now do with complete safety and satisfaction. Mr. Benn should make his parcel post more trustworthy. No wonder he is losing Ed million if people are let down by high charges and (brushed-off) pilfering.
There is then the case of Mr. Norris, about which the hon. Gentleman and I have already corresponded. He will recall that I sent him this extremely ugly looking letter which had managed to get into that condition within one day of being posted from Brighton. It has written on it:
The Postmaster is very sorry that this packet has been accidentally damaged in the post.
Not only had it been damaged, but it had been sliced open, and, when it reached me, I found that the writer had a series of complaints. He said:
Every three months or so I am informed that a letter has been sent to me—but it has never arrived! Last December a letter from Scotland went astray. It turned up (with the Brighton postmark franked over the Scottish postmark) just before Easter.
That same week I received a letter marked Tiverton, Devon, about February 25th. Again, it had been refranked with the Brighton postmark.
In March, I received a confidential letter from my solicitors in Hove after it had been around Brighton for a few days. Although it was a self-sealing envelope with the solicitor's name and address clearly printed, it did not deter an inquisitive individual from slitting the envelope surreptitiously (doubtless to read the contents) before re-posting in Brighton.
I shall not bore the House with all these letters, of which I have had so many. It is an intensely worrying situation. I just mention the case of the cripple in Montreal Road, Brighton, whose letters were turned away, it being said that he was not there. He has lived there for 20 years. Nothing seems to be done about

these things, and no one seems to want to do anything.
I think that we ought to see whether there are not perhaps too many old people operating this organisation. I have been told that to become a postmaster at Brighton, or have a job closely connected with it, is rather nice and easy just before one retires. The question must be asked whether it is not time for us to ascertain whether we cannot get more young people at the head of affairs.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will tell us a little about the powers that his public relations officer will have. He has not told us that in his answers to me. If he is not successful, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would then be so good as to see whether we cannot have a public inquiry into the situation in the whole of the South Coast area.

4.20 p.m.

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling) has not given me very much time to answer all the points that he has introduced into the debate. However, I am glad to have the opportunity of replying to the criticism which he has ventilated against the Post Office services in Brighton on a general basis.
I would say, first of all, that I think, it quite understandable that any Member of Parliament should be concerned with the services of the Post Office in his constituency. It is right that hon. Members should wish to ensure that these services are as efficiently provided as possible, and where faults appear to be occurring it is clearly the duty of every hon. Member to make inquiries and, if need be, ask for matters to be set right.
Nevertheless, in this instance, I am sure that the hon. Member's complaints do not provide a fair picture of the quality of service which the Post Office is giving in Brighton as a whole. Just before this debate began, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) who lives at Rottingdean, said "I am quite happy with the type of service which has been meted out to me in Brighton. I have no complaints."
Brighton Post Office handles more traffic than any other office on the south coast from Dover to Lands End and is


one of the 20 largest provincial offices in the country. Three million letters are dealt with every week, and about 170 million letters are handled annually. In addition, 60,000 parcels are dealt with every week, or about 3½ million every year.
Approximately 85 million letters are delivered annually and about 500 of the 586 postmen perform letter delivery, some permanently, some in rotation. On an average, therefore, a postman delivers about 170,000 letters a year. If every postman mis-delivered four letters a year there would be 2,000 sources of complaint solely on the grounds of mis-delivery. This would be a mis-delivery rate of only one in every 42,500 letters, and, having regard to the often illegible handwriting, the dark mornings, the weather and all the difficulties with which postmen have to contend, a rate of error of one to 42,500 is hardly serious inefficiency.
But there are not 2,000 complaints of mis-delivery every year. From January to May inclusive this year there have been 231 complaints, not all of which proved to be due to postmen's errors. Admittedly, not every mis-delivery will have inspired a complaint, but even if there were three mis-deliveries to every actual complaint, this would only amount to 1,663 mis-deliveries out of 85 million letters delivered annually, a rate of one in every 50,000 letters delivered.
In fact, the public also make mistakes. In the matter of letters alone, five staff are employed at Brighton doing nothing else but return letters to the public, many of which are undeliverable because of incorrect or inadequate addressing by the public. Far too often the Post Office is blamed for non-delivery of letters which could neither be delivered nor returned to the sender or which have been delayed because they were carried around in a pocket or a handbag before being put into a letterbox.
It should not be overlooked by those who criticise the efficiency of the postal service that most of the work of sorting and delivering letters is done by staff who are on duty when the great majority of the population are either enjoying their recreation or are in bed. Over 70 per cent. of all the letters delivered in the Brighton area have to be sorted between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. More than 50 men work throughout the night, and over 300

more rise between 4 a.m. and 4.30 a.m. on six mornings in the week in order to be on duty at 5 a.m. or 5.30 a.m.
Many of these men walk to work because there is no public transport and they do so in all seasons and all weathers. They have completed their sorting and the preparation of their letters and are out on the streets by 7 a.m. By the time most people are arriving to begin their work, the postmen have completed four hours' work and are still waiting for their breakfasts. The conditions under which the mail is delivered are by no means easy.
I should now like to deal with some of the particular points which the hon. Gentleman made about the postal service representative. The hon. Member touched on that appointment. As I informed him recently, this is something that we have done as an experiment not only in Brighton, but also in many towns and cities of a similar or larger size. These officers will discuss with the users of the postal services, and particularly those who make considerable use of our facilities, how they can use our services to their best advantage. I feel sure that this is a very useful development and one which hon. Members will be able to welcome wholeheartedly.
The hon. Gentleman talked about a delayed telegram. Let me give him the facts. My right hon. Friend answered the point fully on the 20th May, but I can add that the telegram was delivered in spite of the mistakes that were made, about 4½ hours after being handed in. Under the International Telegraph Regulations, we can only consider a refund because of late delivery if 6 hours have elapsed before the telegram is delivered.
Let me come to the shortage of day telephone operators. In Brighton Exchange, there are 13 vacancies out of a staff of 278. There is also a shortage in the area of 81. As for the facilities available to Brighton telephone subscribers, those connected to the Brighton system can dial local calls direct to each other and to subscribers on 52 other exchanges. Subscriber Trunk Dialling is available to about half the subscribers at Brighton. New connections are being added to the system at the rate of about 10 per cent. per annum while trunk traffic is growing at about 14 per cent. per annum.
I should remind the hon. Gentleman that when he talks about bad and old equipment, that is not the fault of my right hon. Friend and myself. It is an inheritance from the years before the Post Office gained its financial independence in 1961.
The hon. Member has been quoted in the Press as inviting suggestions to improve the efficiency of Brighton Post Office. Yet my information is that it is a long time since he visited this office, and the head postmaster would be glad to arrange not only for him to see the Post Office at work on its varied tasks at any time of the day or night, but, if he can pay an early morning visit, he could accompany a postman round part of his own constituency and see for himself the task at which many of his criticisms have been levelled. He will have an opportunity to meet 100 or more of his own constituents who are also Post Office servants and will be able to get their points of view after he has seen what the job entails.
The head postmaster will also be glad to explain to him the design for the future. Plans have already been completed for the installation of one of the first and

most modern parcel sorting machines in the country. He will describe the progress already made towards the introduction of electronic letter sorting machines and the allocation of a postal code to every address in the district. He will explain all that is being done to improve both efficiency and economy in a service which still relies largely upon human beings who can never be perfect. He will demonstrate all the steps which are taken to eliminate errors and train the staff, and show that the Post Office at Brighton does not lag behind private organisations where quality control is concerned.
In conclusion, I assure the hon. Member that the Post Office services in Brighton would be only too glad for him to come to see them at closer quarters. They have nothing to hide.
I have read some of the reports in the Press. But, so long as I hold my present position, I shall defend the postal services in Brighton——

The Question having been proposed at Four o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at half-past Four o'clock.